my new "Wait4me Performance" PCM...

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:18 am

i ordered a re-tuned PCM from Jesse at W4M, and i am quite pleased with it.

took only 8 days to arrive, and its working exactly as requested...

the EGR code is gone, Torque Mangement is removed by 75%, line pressure is increased slightly. i had him program it with performance/economy tuning, had my shift points raised a couple hundred rpm, top speed limiter removed.

the speed limiter is gone... i checked.
and the odometer is matching up with the interstate mile markers, so
everything seems to be working properly, and as requested.
and i get to keep my old PCM as a spare...
next time i go to the track, i may take the old PCM with me, and do a
back to back comparison with them.

the emission inspection will be Tue, or Wed... looks like it should pass now.

as far as i am concerned, for $159 shipped, it cant be beat.
i am quite pleased with it.

time will tell how much mileage improvement i`ll get...
i`ll be checking it, let you know the next couple of fillups...

bwenny247 · Post by **bwenny247** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:07 am

cool mod, $160 sounds a lot better than $300 for a hypertech tuner. granted you don't have DTC code reading capabilities like the HPP would, but for keeping your tire size and gear ratio stock this sounds like a good way to go.

does the truck feel more responsive? heck with a 1-2 mpg increase, that should pay for itself within a year. let us know how it works

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:24 pm

That sounds pretty sweet! Seeing that I can't buy a used HPP3 for my truck b/c the dealer updated my PCM a while back, this sounds like the best deal around! Please keep us updated as to how the truck is doing with the new PCM. Also, I am interested in hearing as to how the fuel mileage is. I also read on another forum about guys saying that they could get rubber from a stand still and then chirp 2nd gear with this PCM. Can you??

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:30 pm

What do they charge when you need to make another change?

I have needed to change mine at least half a dozen times.
What if you change tire sizes and need it reflashed? Is it another $150?

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:31 pm

The website says free lifetime updates, you just need to pay for the shipping.

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:44 pm

As long as they are still around when you need an update, it sounds pretty good.

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:23 am

Where is the W4M site ?

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:08 am

http://wait4meperformance.com/

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:19 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:That sounds pretty sweet! Seeing that I can't buy a used HPP3 for my truck b/c the dealer updated my PCM a while back, this sounds like the best deal around! Please keep us updated as to how the truck is doing with the new PCM. Also, I am interested in hearing as to how the fuel mileage is. I also read on another forum about guys saying that they could get rubber from a stand still and then chirp 2nd gear with this PCM. Can you??

well, my truck hasnt ever had much problem burning rubber from a dead stop, even with the Torsen.
but it still doesnt bark going to 2nd gear, maybe if it still had an open diff., maybe... i can tell you it definetly feels much stronger on the WOT 1-2 shift than it did before. the truck definetly lunges forward on the upshift now. not harsh, but solid and firm.
removing the TM by 75% and increasing the tranny line pressure sure makes a remarkable difference in shift feel, even at part throttle...
IMO, well worth the money.

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:29 am

HenryJ wrote:As long as they are still around when you need an update, it sounds pretty good.

one guy on S10Forum said he`s had his Wait4Me tune for about 3 years now, and if they keep offering good tunes for prices like this, i imagine he will be around for quite a while...

also, the $159 price is for a replacement PCM tuned to your specs... you get to keep your original.
NO core charge...

they charge about half as much, if you send your original PCM in to be reprogrammed... if you can afford the downtime on your truck.

Post by **HenryJ** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:40 am

It says that deal is good for three months. Expires August?
It has been extended, so maybe it will continue as long as good cores are available.

With a little knowledge anyone could do this if you have a copy of EFI Live. Sure would be nice to have that.

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 am

crew cab sonoma wrote:Torque Mangement is removed by 75%

What exactly is this?

2kwik4u · Post by **2kwik4u** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:11 am

HenryJ wrote:With a little knowledge anyone could do this if you have a copy of EFI Live. Sure would be nice to have that.

I 120% agree......There is nothing better than a custom tune. Mail order tunes ALWAYS leave something on the table (for good reason), and they limit you on your ability to experiment, and find what works best for YOUR truck. The premium is your time, and expense. With a copy of EFILive going for $750 for V2, it's a good deal more expensive. Add in that you need a wideband O2 sensor to make any real fuel delivery improvements, and you're easily into $1k worth of equipment. The payoff is hard to justify for all but the most hardcore gearhead/techy type guys. If you're like me, and a little of both, then it's an easy decision (although my wallet tends to disagree).

With that said........The mail order tunes have gotten to be quite good, as the people creating the tunes are getting more and more experienced with the PCM's, and the vehicles that they go on. At $159 it's certainly a HUGE improvement in tune quality over a hypertech unit that is twice the price. So if you don't have the knowledge, time, money, motivation to do it yourself, a mail order tune from someone like Wait4Me is certainly a great option.

Glad to hear yours is working out well!

2kwik4u · Post by **2kwik4u** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:20 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:
crew cab sonoma wrote:Torque Mangement is removed by 75%

What exactly is this?

Torque Managment is a method that GM uses to extend the life of it's transmission in high torque applications (yes they consider 250ft-lbs high torque

).

The idea is that it will pull timing from the motor just before, and during the shift in order to soften the load on the transmission. Once the transmission has delivered the shift it will ramp that timing back in considerably.

For reference Saturday I logged my truck on EFILive. Timing was ~24* in 2nd as I approached the shift. Two data frames in the log showed timing at -5*, and was ramped back in over the next two frames to get back at 20* after the shift.

Some of the S-series guys have seen .5 second 1/4 mile improvements from doing nothing but eliminating torque management....It's a significant improvement. However it shouldn't be completely removed unless the transmission is setup to handle the extra power (shift kit, and other internal changes).

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:34 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:
crew cab sonoma wrote:Torque Mangement is removed by 75%

What exactly is this?

Torque Management (i misspelled it originally) is where the PCM is programed to retard ign. timing, by as much as 30 degrees sometimes, for a second or so on upshifts at part to full throttle, to make for a softer shift feel, and to make life easy on the transmission.

it is responsible for that "bog" or "lag" you feel on upshifts.
some people perceive it as just lousy shift quality. but some reasearch on TM, plus some driving time spent with a scan tool that can view live data
will confirm that the PCM does indeed retard timing by huge ammounts on uphifts...

Wrangler · Post by **Wrangler** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:49 am

Wait tunes are very popular on gmtrucks.com and have been around a few years. I was gonna get one before I sold my full size. There seemed to be a rivalary over there betwwen the $159 wait for me tune and the Westers tune for $800 (?).

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:13 pm

So by removing the torque management by 75% can this or will this harm the transmission in our trucks?? If so, what is a safe number to reduce it??

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:03 pm

Can you still run 87 octane??

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:10 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:So by removing the torque management by 75% can this or will this harm the transmission in our trucks?? If so, what is a safe number to reduce it??

some people will remove all of it, but Jesse doesnt like to go more than 75% reduction.. but you have to remember, these same 4L60E trannys are used in heavier 1500 pickups, with much stronger V8`s bolted to them, so i really dont think a 4.3 in a lighter truck is much of a threat to the longevity of the tranny, TM or not....

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:15 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:Can you still run 87 octane??

you can, but the additional performance and economy enhancements depend on what octane grade the PCM is calibrated for.
its mainly from increased spark advance...
he can calibrate the advance curve for the grade of fuel you run.

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:02 am

thanks for bringin this up. i had been wanting to do mine for a long time and forgot all about it till i read this post. i called this morning and have an appointment for next tuesday. he said he would do mine on site if I drove there. Its only 45 minutes, and the things I could learn would be worth alot!

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:16 am

youre gonna like the results...

BTW, my truck passed its OBD emission inspection yesterday, with no problems.
the EGR code is no longer an issue...

this PCM was money well spent...

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:27 am

Have you had a chance yet to calculate the gas mileage??

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:59 am

I just ordered one!

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:19 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:Have you had a chance yet to calculate the gas mileage??

not yet. my first tankfull with the new tune probably wont get used up until late next week at the rate i`m going right now.

i`ll definetly report in with the results then...

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:00 am

crew cab sonoma, how much did they charge you for the extra PCM? I understand the tune was $160, but how much extra for the new PCM since you say you got to keep your factory one as a spare.

I know they didn't give you one for free.

Steve

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:03 am

That's all it is. $159.00 for a new PCM and you get to keep your original!!!

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:06 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:That's all it is. $159.00 for a new PCM and you get to keep your original!!!

That doesn't make any sense!

A new PCM usually costs more than that, so they would lose money there and they would be giving you the tune for free.

Maybe they are using remanufactured PCM's?

If so they are around $100 so that would make a little more sense I think.

Steve

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:19 am

A new PCM with a custom tune for only $160 shipped has got to be the best deal I have ever heard of.

Steve

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:06 am

its a USED PCM. not brand new...

it is tested for proper functioning before being shipped.
but yeah, $159 for the for the PCM, programing, and shipping... all included in that price...
and you can keep your original PCM as a spare.

they shipped mine via USPS 2-3 day priority mail, and the postal service even emailed me the tracking # on it...

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:08 am

I guess I could have phrased that better when I said you get a new one... meaning, you get to keep yours and you get another one that is programmed.

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:14 am

i figured you guys probably new that.. just thought i would clarify, to make sure somebody didnt read that and think they were going to get a BRAND NEW, never before used PCM for that price.

ever wonder why you hardly ever see used PCM`s on Ebay for most popular GM models?

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:06 am

Found on Ebay, Programming@PCMperformance.com,1999-02 LS1 GM ECM ECU PCM Sierra Silverado Blazer S10 $95 + $15 Shipping. What will LS1 programming do for upgrade? Anybody know the differance from stock?

2kwik4u · Post by **2kwik4u** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:41 am

IMO shopping for the cheapest tune is like shopping for the cheapest life vest to go boating......DO you really want to risk something as important as your truck on something you saved $10 on?

Go with a reputable, and well known tuner, you'll be better off in the long run.

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:30 am

Who's got it for $10 more?

2kwik4u · Post by **2kwik4u** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:09 am

Horsehammerr wrote:Who's got it for $10 more?

I think you completely missed the point.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:42 am

Horsehammerr wrote:What will LS1 programming do for upgrade? Anybody know the differance from stock?

It's not an upgrade, we have LS1 style computers.

Steve

2kwik4u · Post by **2kwik4u** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:47 am

killian96ss wrote:
Horsehammerr wrote:What will LS1 programming do for upgrade? Anybody know the differance from stock?
It's not an upgrade, we have LS1 style computers.

Steve

I think he was referring to what the difference in the programming is, not the difference in PCM's.....I could be wrong though.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:42 am

Steve

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:05 pm

You got it!!! I am looking for power change without ripping, tearing, bolting a bunch of so called performance parts on my '02 ZR5. Thanks 2KWIK4U for thinking.

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:45 pm

So what's the proper way of installing a new PCM?? Unplug the battery and switch them? Or is there anything else I should know? Also, where is our PCM located?

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:04 pm

well i got home this evening from getting my tune from wait4me. well i think its safe to say this guy has an idea of what performance is.... shoulda seen some of his projects!

so far it DOES feel better. the transmission almost feels like something is wrong with how quick it shifts. she does feel stronger and it seems to be improving by the mile. I just filled it up tonite with Shell 92. I will go click to click on the pump and see what my first tank mileage is. Shouldnt be hard to break my old record of 273 miles to a tank

a cool feature about the wait4me tune...unlike hpp3 or any other tune, this tune has programming that takes a fresh reading of the fuel every 3 miles, and advances the timing to the point of knocking, and then retards the timing appropriately, which maximizes power and efficiency every gallon of gas. this guy worked for gm's computer feedback controls systems for years. he seems to know his stuff. I recommend his tune all the way so far. A good guy to talk to, if you can find his house

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:59 pm

crew cab sonoma, do you need to do a crankshaft relearn procedure once installing the new PCM???

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:01 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:crew cab sonoma, do you need to do a crankshaft relearn procedure once installing the new PCM???

W4M says it needs to be done. however, my truck ran fine, and set no codes without having it performed.

i did find a local shop that was familiar with perfoming this procedure, and they charged me $30 to do it. i didnt notice any difference in how it ran after the relearn...

just make sure that whoever performs this procedeure, understands that you only want the relearn procedure done, NOT a complete re-flash, as this will return you to a stock tune....

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:05 am

ok, track results are in.....
Fri. night T&T. passes were "back to Back", with no other changes made.
8 passes total. only stopped long enough to swap out the PCM`s...

Run#...PCM.....60ft.......1/8...........MPH

1..........W4M....2.245...10.174......67.97
2..........W4M....2.250...10.169......67.54
3..........W4M....2.270...10.201......67.29

4..........stock....2.301...10.402......66.47
5..........stock....2.317...10.447......66.30
6..........stock....2.315...10.459......66.00

7..........W4M.....2.242...10.151.....67.34
8..........W4M.....2.235...10.134.....67.59

as you can see, the W4M PCM was good for about a quarter second gain in the 1/8th mile. the gain would be even greater in the 1/4 mi.

you may also notice that these times did not beat my previous best of 10.02, which is entirely due to the
hot, humid weather, whereas my 10.02 pass was made in late winter, with very cool, dry air....
if i had the Wait4 Me PCM then, i would have certainly been solidly in the 9.70`s.

so, there is definetly a solid performance gain here...

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:07 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:I just ordered one!

have you recieved yours yet?

Wrangler · Post by **Wrangler** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:05 am

any changes in gas mileage?

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:11 pm

on 87, i just passed the half tank mark, and my trip meter was at 178

...that makes me happy!

Wrangler · Post by **Wrangler** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:04 pm

Thats normal for me but then again my gas guage doesn't work right. At 200-220 miles I am normally filling my tank.

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:59 am

none to report for mine yet. i went on vacation last week, so my truck didnt get driven much then. probably be about 2-3 more days before i fill up again.

at 200-220 miles per tank, you must drive like me, mostly short trips, in-town driving, lots of idling. or perhaps you pull a trailer quite a bit.
my truck rarely sees any significant highway driving.

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:34 am

I got mine and installed it last night. Unfortunately, something is wrong. It idles at 2500 RPM!! I had the crankshaft relearn procedure done thinking this is why it was idling so high but that wasn't the case. I had to take it out and put the stock one back in. I am still waiting to here from him to see what he can do.

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:49 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:I got mine and installed it last night. Unfortunately, something is wrong. It idles at 2500 RPM!! I had the crankshaft relearn procedure done thinking this is why it was idling so high but that wasn't the case. I had to take it out and put the stock one back in. I am still waiting to here from him to see what he can do.

sorry to hear you had problems with it.
i`m sure Jesse will fix it for you.

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:30 am

purduecrew wrote:on 87, i just passed the half tank mark, and my trip meter was at 178 ...that makes me happy!

this all all city driving...

i managed 270 out of my first tank of 93 (avg mpg was 17.8 ), thats with 120 miles pulling AT LEAST a 1200 lb car trailer and others a tractor onboard or even a bobcat, or a load of scrap steel to the yard. i think there is something to be said there...

Wrangler · Post by **Wrangler** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:52 pm

crew cab sonoma wrote:none to report for mine yet. i went on vacation last week, so my truck didnt get driven much then. probably be about 2-3 more days before i fill up again.

at 200-220 miles per tank, you must drive like me, mostly short trips, in-town driving, lots of idling. or perhaps you pull a trailer quite a bit.
my truck rarely sees any significant highway driving.

No thats just when I feel safe to fill up. lol There is usually a few gallons left I just don't want to burn up my fuel pump early. I usually get 16-16.5 normally on a trip this summer I got 21.5 on one tank and 19.5 the other 2.

My old 1995 sonoma (same gears, ext cab, 5 speed 4.3l TBI) got 19 in town and 23 on the highway on premium. Maybe the 3.73 gears would actually help with this heavier truck?

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:27 pm

I emailed them last night and haven't heard anything back yet. I'll give him another day or two before I get worried.

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:24 pm

he will respond, he just has a crapton of stuff on his plate. And if he doesnt, im only an hour or so away

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:57 pm

I just got an email back from them and they said to send it back. I wish it would have just worked the first time!

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:29 am

BobbleSmitty wrote:they said to send it back. I wish it would have just worked the first time!

Hopefully they are paying shipping in both directions for you since they sent you a faulty PCM.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:50 pm

BobbleSmitty wrote:... they said to send it back.

I wonder if that is how they got their name- "Wait4me Performance" , I hope you don't spend lots of time waiting for the performance

BobbleSmitty · Post by **BobbleSmitty** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:56 pm

I sent it back today. Since he claims "100% customer satisfaction" I'm hoping that they refund my shipping cost.

Wrangler · Post by **Wrangler** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:46 pm

BobbleSmitty wrote:I sent it back today. Since he claims "100% customer satisfaction" I'm hoping that they refund my shipping cost.

I believe that means he will tune it till your happy, not pay shipping. I wonder why some work great and others don't. Maybe it has to do with the cores he gets. maybe some are defective? For $159 for a tune and new core you cant beat it.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:11 pm

BobbleSmitty wrote:I sent it back today. I'm hoping that they refund my shipping cost.

Are they sending you another tuned PCM?

Make sure they refund the shipping cost since they clearly sent you something that doesn't work.

Steve

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:58 am

just filled up yesterday evening, and my gas mileage for the first tank on the new tune. i got 15.97 MPG, which doesnt sound very impressive at first, but my last 3-4 tanks have netted between 14.9, and 15.5 mpg.

like i said before, i do mainly short in-town trips, lots of stop`n go, and plenty of time parked, with the engine idling. plus, on this tank, over 2 hours spent at the dragstrip, whith the engine running probably more than 90% of that time...

not to mention a much higher than average ammount of WOT time on the street, to evaluate the new tune...

we`ll see how the next tankful does, and i`ll report again...

crew cab sonoma · Post by **crew cab sonoma** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:15 am

purduecrew wrote: a cool feature about the wait4me tune...unlike hpp3 or any other tune, this tune has programming that takes a fresh reading of the fuel every 3 miles, and advances the timing to the point of knocking, and then retards the timing appropriately, which maximizes power and efficiency every gallon of gas.

just wondering if you could elaborate any more on this.
like how does this differ from the stock programming?
did Jesse say how often the stock tune does this?
does he set up all of his tunes this way?

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:18 pm

crew cab sonoma wrote:
purduecrew wrote: a cool feature about the wait4me tune...unlike hpp3 or any other tune, this tune has programming that takes a fresh reading of the fuel every 3 miles, and advances the timing to the point of knocking, and then retards the timing appropriately, which maximizes power and efficiency every gallon of gas.

just wondering if you could elaborate any more on this.
like how does this differ from the stock programming?

the stock tune I believe only re-analyzes the fuel every couple HUNDRED miles. basically he said that when you get gas these days the crappy ethanol sinks to the bottom and thats what gets burned first, but with no variation to how its burned compared to the better gas that remains on top. Basically his does what the factory settings do just ALOT more. But very smart if you ask me, cuz that means its maximizing the current gas that is being consumed 6 times per gallon. Helps MPG basically.

did Jesse say how often the stock tune does this?

see above.

does he set up all of his tunes this way?

i would have no reason to see why not.

http://www.toptiergas.com

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:00 am

purduecrew wrote:basically he said that when you get gas these days the crappy ethanol sinks to the bottom and thats what gets burned first, but with no variation to how its burned compared to the better gas that remains on top.

Basically his does what the factory settings do just ALOT more. But very smart if you ask me, cuz that means its maximizing the current gas that is being consumed 6 times per gallon. Helps MPG basically.

Nothing to worry about unless you have too much water in your gas tank.

Gasoline has a specific gravity of 0.739 @ 25* C
Ethanol has a specific gravity of 0.787 @ 25* C

Even though ethanol is slightly heavier, it will not separate in your gas tank unless you have more than .5% of water also in your tank.

This is called phase separation.

If a 10% ethanol blend is contaminated with over .5% water,
the ethanol and water mixture can separate from the gasoline and fall to the bottom of the gas tank.

It is highly unlikely that you will ever have more than .5% of water in your gas tank and if you do you should start buying your gas somewhere else.

What all this means is that this feature won't really give you better gas mileage.

Steve

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:28 pm

agree to disagree on that one.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:39 pm

purduecrew wrote:agree to disagree on that one.

Please explain!

Steve

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:39 pm

Im no scientist, but some things I do know is that ethanol attracts water. So, in some situations I could see ethanol fuel being crappier than a tank of straight gasoline. Second, NOT EVERYTHING GM DOES is for a good cause, but if they feel the need to have the vehicle analyze the fuel its consuming every 1,333, 337 pulses, whats wrong with doing the check every 66,000 pulses??? It can only be more accurate of an average. Thirdly, NO ITS NOT THE ONLY THING HE CHANGED, but the proof is in the pudding at me seeing nearly 3 more miles per gallon already and im not fully satisfied my tune is 100% perfect. Its 10pm Saturday and im getting ready to do a 180 mile interstate drive, my first one, and we will see how good its doing on the interstate. Im getting 2-3 mpg better just in town.
Things that were changed :
Torque management - no effect

Tire size ( I was already correcting for percentage of mileage off)

No timing "curves" were changed, thats the reason for the optimizing pattern of the timing he gave the computer. That way it doesnt matter what I run for fuel, I dont have to set it for "87" or "93"

Thats all that I had changed, as I have a relatively stock truck.

So if the optimization curve is useless, where's the change in mileage coming from? No change in workload, no change in tire pressures, nor temperature, and I havent lost any weight

forgot to add:
http://www.toptiergas.com

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:55 pm

purduecrew wrote:ethanol attracts water.

True, and this is why I mentioned how a certain percentage of water can cause ethanol to separate from gas, but if you do have more than .5% of water in your tank then obviously something is wrong with the gas your buying.

I could see ethanol fuel being crappier than a tank of straight gasoline.

Ethanol has a higher octane than gas, burns cleaner, and makes a lot more power, but it also takes more ethanol than gas to achieve the same mileage so your mileage actually drops with ethanol.

NOT EVERYTHING GM DOES is for a good cause

Very true!

if they feel the need to have the vehicle analyze the fuel its consuming every 1,333, 337 pulses, whats wrong with doing the check every 66,000 pulses??? It can only be more accurate of an average.

I see your point and agree that more frequent sampling is better, but doesn't the PCM also sample the gas the same way each time the vehicle is started up?

If the PCM does sample at every start up then there really is no need to sample more frequently while driving.

ITS NOT THE ONLY THING HE CHANGED, but the proof is in the pudding at me seeing nearly 3 more miles per gallon. Im getting 2-3 mpg better just in town.

You posted above "my gas mileage for the first tank on the new tune i got 15.97 MPG, which doesn't sound very impressive at first, but my last 3-4 tanks have netted between 14.9, and 15.5 mpg."

If this is accurate then you gained .7 mpg, not 2-3 mpg.

Maybe I am missing something though?

When I had my CC I averaged 17 mpg (mostly stop and go with some commute) and had a best of 21 mpg using the Hypertech (which isn't all that great of a performance tune).

Things that were changed :
Torque management - no effect

If you didn't notice any improvement with torque management removed then either he didn't remove it or something is wrong because you would definitely notice the difference.

Maybe you were trying to say that he didn't change the torque management?

No timing "curves" were changed, thats the reason for the optimizing pattern of the timing he gave the computer. That way it doesnt matter what I run for fuel, I dont have to set it for "87" or "93"

This might be convenient by allowing you to run different grades of gas, but almost every other tune out there optimizes the timing and fuel curves for a specific octane which will make a lot more power than a tune the samples fuel octane frequently for better efficiency.

The more expensive tunes adjust all parameters including fuel & timing curves which might explain why his tunes are so cheap.

You usually get what you pay for, and in your case at least your getting better gas mileage, but I can guarantee some of the more expensive tunes out there will get even better gas mileage while gaining a lot more power.

if the optimization curve is useless, where's the change in mileage coming from?

Are you referring to the .7 mpg increase?

Removing any amount of torque management and increasing line pressure will increase gas mileage because it reduces trans slippage and transfers power to the wheels more efficiently.

If you are happy with your tune then that's all that really matters.

When I get a custom tune for my ZR2 I will definitely be using the same company (PCM4Less.com) that tuned my SS since they were able to get me a lot more hp (30+

) and increase my gas mileage (21 mpg average

)

Keep posting your gas mileage #'s so we can get a "better" average that doesn't include towing, drag strip action or lots of WOT runs.

Maybe your mileage increases are 2-3 mpg, but it will need more accurate testing to confirm.

BTW, don't take my comments too seriously since I am just a very skeptical person and not "yet" sold on these tunes from "Wait 4 Me".

Steve

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:03 pm

the difference of .7mpg is an error in my reporting. that was the first two tanks I reported (or noted to myself actually) and every tank so far has had the bobcat behind it at some point. The very last tank averaged 17.9 mpg, which is still with some loads behind it. Its going up. However, I dont see where I said my averages were 14.9-15.5 but thats another day...

i would bet that theres alot of gas out there being sold with more than .5% water content...

yes ethanol is higher octane etc. but you have to burn twice as much to get the same power...(been around demo derbys some and thats what they run), so like you say, it really cuts mileage.

just because the stock pcm analyzes at every keystart, I just drove 200 miles without stopping...there goes constant fuel sampling when I needed it most.

I notice a shift improvement with torque management, but torque management is only active immediately before and after a shift, not while cruising, so the time a vehicle spends in shifting, I cant see it making a difference in gas mileage.

wait4me's tunes have custom fuel and timing curves based on the different octane samplings loaded into the computer. i saw them myself.

its kind of like tow/haul mode, he can add that in a jiffy, all he has to do is ADD that curve table to the computer and tell you what pin to momentarily ground. so for all the guys trying to ground pins, no dice... the maps not there.

i take your comments seriously, but not personally. I think theres alot to be had here for the price. Sure there may be another 5 horse in a different tuner, but at the "tune" of an extra 200 bucks...

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:16 pm

purduecrew wrote:I dont see where I said my averages were 14.9-15.5 but thats another day...

Your right, my bad, I quoted crew cab sonoma and his gains with a Wait 4 Me Performance tune was only .7 mpg better than stock.

i would bet that theres alot of gas out there being sold with more than .5% water content...

I doubt it would be from the top tier companies like Chevron, Shell, 76, etc.

This is why I said if your getting gas like this then you need to buy somewhere else, because "good" gas does not contain more than .5% water.

just because the stock pcm analyzes at every keystart, I just drove 200 miles without stopping...there goes constant fuel sampling when I needed it most.

Let me be the first to say that this quote doesn't make any sense, at least to me it doesn't.

If the PCM samples gas at start up then why would you need to sample the same gas every 6 miles?

It's the same gas and it won't change composition or octane every couple of miles.

This is why the PCM samples at start up because this would be right after you add new gas from a different source which may be of a different quality or octane rating.

Sampling every 6 miles does absolutely nothing for performance when the gas is the same during the first few miles of a trip as it would be at the end of a trip.

It simply doesn't make any sense!

torque management is only active immediately before and after a shift, not while cruising, so the time a vehicle spends in shifting, I cant see it making a difference in gas mileage.

Your are correct about when torque management is active and yes it wouldn't affect gas mileage much if at all if you start a trip and end without ever stopping or slowing down which would cause the transmission to shift, but this is not the real world, when you drive around especially in town your transmission does a lot of shifting and with torque management removed you get faster firmer shifts that transmit power more efficiently which does increase gas mileage.

wait4me's tunes have custom fuel and timing curves based on the different octane samplings loaded into the computer. i saw them myself.

This makes more sense, however it is not what you said above "No timing "curves" were changed".

If the timing curves were not changed from stock then how are they custom?

Just messin with ya.

i take your comments seriously, but not personally.

I'm glad you aren't taking any of my comments personally.

I just like having good discussion.

I think theres alot to be had here for the price. Sure there may be another 5 horse in a different tuner, but at the "tune" of an extra 200 bucks...

The price is awesome, I can't argue about that.

I'm pretty sure Ed Wright of PCM4Less.com could extract more than another 5 hp with more options for about $100 more, but like you said for the price you are paying it's really hard to beat.

I will watch your continued results closely and might one day be sold on Jesse's tunes, but for now I'm very happy with my tuner.

Steve

purduecrew · Post by **purduecrew** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:19 pm

glad to have discussion! my interstate drive wasnt very productive this sunday morning cuz it was 5 am and i was doing 90 the whole way...

let me clarify by first saying that when i said "no timing 'curves' were changed" , what I meant was that there wasn't a set curve input for a certain octane rating into the computer. I meant that the "curve" is now floating, that it adjust for the fuel sampled and isnt locked into one setting...hope that makes more sense.

as for crappy gas, there are alot of gas stations outside of the top tier, big stations like murphys, bp, and speedways if I remember right, that ALOT of people buy gas at. My dad always notices bad performance and mileage in his 94 sonoma when running speedway gas.

lastly, what I meant about the keystart fuel sampling comment, is that if the factory setting only samples at startup, then if you do like me, and fill up your tank, and then drive 3/4 of your tank before you stop, like going down the interstate, then the fuel in fact could change from the rich in ethanol to straight gas all the while dumping in gas like it had to with the ethanol, to make the power...make any sense at all? I dont think it samples at the keystart anyway thought, but i could be completely wrong.

p.s. ive also got something worn out, dragging my front tires, so im sure that cant help my mileage. that issue is getting addressed wednesday, and hopefully ill be able to get some better, more accurate results next sunday.

but yah, i was TOTALLY ready to get a PCMforless tune as they are EXCELLENT, but for the money, i feel that wait4me, is unbeatable, not to mention local so sometime I can take it and get pinpoint concerns looked at...mileages will follow...

P.S. is that Ed Wright from syty.net??

because if so, he could be an unbeatable asset for anyone on here who adds F.I...he knows his syclones! i wasnt aware that he had a connection with pcmforless.

maybe I should just get this tune I have locked down, and then order one from pcmforless and see if I can tell a difference, and if so how big...maybe that will be my contribution...

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:07 am

purduecrew wrote:if the factory setting only samples at startup, then if you do like me, and fill up your tank, and then drive 3/4 of your tank before you stop, like going down the interstate, then the fuel in fact could change from the rich in ethanol to straight gas all the while dumping in gas like it had to with the ethanol, to make the power...make any sense at all? I dont think it samples at the keystart anyway thought, but i could be completely wrong.

Still doesn't make any sense since the gas will not change composition, separate, or change octane while you are driving down the interstate.

If you left some gas in your tank for a couple months it could change, but not just from driving down the road.

I'm not positive either if the PCM samples at start up, but if it doesn't then then changes made to your tune would definitely help.

P.S. is that Ed Wright from syty.net??

I don't know if it is the same guy, but the Ed Wright I am referring to is a former NHRA drag racer and dirt track racer who currently races a Firebird that runs 9's and he works for Fast Chip, not PCMforless.com.

I mixed him up with Bryan Herter who does work for PCMforless.com.

Bryan did the tuning on my 96 SS, while Ed did the tuning for my 88 S10.

Both are great tuners.

maybe I should just get this tune I have locked down, and then order one from pcmforless and see if I can tell a difference, and if so how big...maybe that will be my contribution...

Why would you want to waste money when you already have a good tune.

There are a few people over at ZR2 USA who have tunes from PCMforless.com so maybe when you get you #'s down you could just compare results with some of them and see if there is any noticeable differences?

Steve

2kwik4u · Post by **2kwik4u** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:43 am

Sampling fuel? You guys are nukin futz. The 4.3 doesn't have a fuel sampler (like the flex-fuel equipped cars). There are no means to "sample fuel" on the engine with a sensor. The only sampling it does is with the knock sensor.

You can basically set the timing high enough for the motor to knock, then let the knock sensor pull timing out constantly to keep the timing set as high as possible. The way it does this is with two timing tables, a low octane and a high octane. As knock counts get higher, it weights the lower table more heavily, as knock counts reduce it weights the high table heavier. It will constantly adjust teh weighting between the two tables while driving, just like the O2 sensor effects the fuel trims, it adjusts the timing at a regular interval (usually 1,000's of times per mile) to maintain that set level of performance.

I know I personally don't want my truck knocking all the time so I'd much prefer to have a good accurate base tune, and live without that 2hp gained by running it on the ragged edge. For a race car thats a great solution, for a daily driver....not so much. There is even the chance of setting the low timing table too high to completely eliminate engine knock if it is being 100% weighted. Leaving the motor to knock badly while driving with no safety net left to fall back on. I doubt any of these tunes are setup that way, but it is possible.

S-10CREWCAB.NET

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