Fuel and fuel treatments

Crew02 · Post by **Crew02** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:14 pm

My gas milage had fallen off a little a couple months ago. I ran the chevron fuel system cleaner through and it picked back up.

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Crew02 wrote:My gas milage had fallen off a little a couple months ago. I ran the chevron fuel system cleaner through and it picked back up.

Hope it didn't include Techron...

HenryJ wrote:Gm has pending litigation due to the sticking injector poppets. Techron seems to be the common thread.

No hard evidence that I have seen yet, but it is recommended to avoid the Techron , which is a coating, not cleaner.

This sure has been kept quiet, I wonder if there was a settlement?

Crew02 · Post by **Crew02** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:18 pm

I have done a search and can find nothing about Techron and GM other than GM recommends it.

Crew02 · Post by **Crew02** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:26 pm

This is all I can find about the fuel injectors.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jan05/291186.asp

JSOnline wrote:Clogged injectors traced to sulfates
GM says it has found cause of malfunctions in thousands of area cars
By RAQUEL RUTLEDGE
rrutledge@journalsentinel.com

It doesn't explain the who, when, where or the why, but General Motors officials say they think they know what is responsible for recently clogging thousands of fuel injectors around Milwaukee.
Fuel Injector Problems

"We have not seen anything to indicate or suggest there was a problem at all."- David Harvey,
Citgo's manager of fuel technology and technical services

Tip
Motorists can avoid problems by having fuel injectors professionally cleaned annually and by adding injector cleaner regularly, an expert says.

Recent Coverage
12/26/04: GM, Citgo turn up often in injector issue
12/13/04: Editorial: Unclogging those fuel
clogs
12/10/04: Fuel quality declining, auto industry asserts
12/3/04: Memo fuels injector debate
10/31/04: Editorial: Resume daily testing
10/28/04: State slashed gas tests as hundreds of fuel injectors clogged; cause still unsure
10/19/04: Injector flaws impede drivers, stump experts

Sulfate salts. Tiny inorganic salts that generally form when sulfur is exposed to water.

GM officials said their chemical analysis showed that sulfate salt deposits were found on the internal mechanical components of the injectors, causing them to malfunction.

"GM has investigated this situation and believes that what is occurring in the Milwaukee area is an anomaly and is not related to the normal performance of GM vehicle fuel injectors," the company said in a written statement.

Company officials familiar with the investigation were not available for further comment.

GM investigators said last month that they believed one gasoline supplier may have been responsible, but they would not release the company's name because of the investigation's early stage. The latest statement says GM is working with "fuel companies" to try to pinpoint the source of the sulfates.

Fuel experts say most, but not all, sulfur is extracted from the crude oil when it's processed into gasoline at refineries. The remaining sulfur takes many forms and can form crystal-like salts that are not soluble in fuel if exposed to water or oxygen over time.

Officials from Citgo, where many motorists in a Journal Sentinel online survey said they bought gas before their injector problems, said in an interview that they were aware that sulfate salts were a likely culprit, but they had no idea how or where the salts might enter the fuel supply.

"We're fighting that issue right now, where the source of that may be," said David Harvey, Citgo's manager of fuel technology and technical services. Harvey said all Citgo's tests showed nothing wrong with its fuel.

"We have not seen anything to indicate or suggest there was a problem at all," he said. "There's nothing that would indicate that there is anything different today than there was five years ago."

Citgo officials said all their grades of gasoline on the market either meet or exceed EPA standards for detergency. They would not provide details. The EPA standards have come under fire recently from auto manufacturers who say the standards are not rigid enough to keep injectors and intake valves clean.

Citgo officials said detergent additives wouldn't remove sulfate salts anyway.

Fuel injector experts disagree.

"Then why can we fix 80% of them by flushing them when we chemically clean them?" said Bill Fulton, a fuel injector expert with Ohio Automotive Technology.

Fulton says motorists can avoid fuel injector problems by having injectors professionally cleaned annually and by adding injector cleaner regularly.

"All a consumer has to do is religiously put a can of injector cleaner in their tank every three months and they won't have that problem," said Fulton, who trains mechanics on injector issues around the country. "It's absolutely preventable."

Fulton said there are about a dozen decent injector cleaners on the market, none of which will cause any harm to vehicles made in 1994 or newer.

The Wisconsin Department of Commerce, which regulates petroleum in the state, could not trace the problem and turned over its investigation to the Environmental Protection Agency.

John Mooney, a fuels specialist with the EPA's Region 5 office in Chicago, said the EPA is doing further tests on the fuel, talking with suppliers and manufacturers, and will analyze the more than 700 complaints compiled by the Commerce Department since October.

The EPA has mandated reformulated fuel in Milwaukee and five surrounding counties since 1995. Mooney said the EPA's authority on the issue also extends to fuel injectors as they relate to emission systems in vehicles.

"Clearly, we have some responsibility here, and we'll be pursuing it as diligently as we can," he said.

U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold said he wants to be sure the issue is addressed. Feingold (D-Wis.) wrote a letter to the EPA on Dec. 14, after receiving a complaint from a motorist.

"Please send me information on the EPA's investigation of this matter and how the agency plans to resolve the problem," he wrote.

Motorists and mechanics around Milwaukee began reporting a surge in plugged fuel injectors beginning mainly in September, when the area switches to its winter blend per EPA mandates, and continuing into December. More than 300 drivers complained to the Journal Sentinel in an online survey. According to the data, roughly 75% of the problems occurred in GM vehicles.

Is there something else we don't know about?

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:38 pm

That was about a year ago. The "poppet" issue was resolved by upgrading the injectors to eliminate them. So the Techron might not cause you problems.

GM basically did the same thing as the "Dex" issue deny, deny, get out of manufacturing the problem, continue to deny until all the affected vehicles are out of warranty and continue to blame the customer.

I am not a "fan" of the "miracle" coatings. Techron is a coating designed to prevent deposits from sticking. That might be OK, on a brand new clean surface, but what if there is already a build up? Now you add more coating that resists cleaners? Doesn't sound good to me.

There was a class action lawsuit forming. Damned if I can't remember where I found the article.

Hey , if the Techron works for you, go for it. Slick 50 worked for someone too. It totally ruined a 454 in the motorhome when the neighbors tried that. Started using twice the oil and smoked bad after that.

The two are similar in my mind. After reading the cases and seeing the sticking poppets having the common thread of using Chevron fuel. I decided to avoid the Techron.

This is just my opinion, I have no documentation, and yes I also changed my Dex to green before I had a problem too.
Call me superstitious

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:15 pm

Here is a good article- Notes on Cleaning Up Fuel System Deposits

I realize that I am in the minority here, and I am in the issue of adding "Heet" to our systems too.

Take it for what it is , my opinion.

Nice link

I found this eerily similar to some of the Dex statements: "GM has investigated this situation and believes that what is occurring in the Milwaukee area is an anomaly and is not related to the normal performance of GM vehicle fuel injectors,"

Why did they redesign the injectors and even offer an upgrade for the problematic systems?

I guess I'd fit in with the "Lone Gunmen" , huh?

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:56 am

During my last dealer visit 2 of their techs told me not to use Chevron gas because of the problems with Techron and fuel injectors. They also told me that my fuel level problem could also be caused by the coating on the sensor in the tank.

I believe the injector problem, but I'm still unsure about the sensor problem. Up until this dealer visit I was using Chevron almost exclusively.

I now use 76 or Shell.

Do not use Slick 50!!! This stuff will totally mess up your engine!!! I saw this happen to a friends 1970 Nova with a 350. After using Slick 50 his motor started smoking and within 3 months he had 2 spun bearings!!! Slick 50 has been sued by thousands of people because they were using a form of bleach in their oil treatment. Bleach is not good for engines, even if it is one of the most slippery substances on earth. I'm not sure if they are still using bleach, but I would stay away from this stuff.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:28 am

killian96ss wrote:...also told me that my fuel level problem could also be caused by the coating on the sensor in the tank....

I do seem to remember some talk of fuels being a contributing factor in the senders potentiometer wear.
Keeping the tank on the top half may help that issue as well. It seems that those running on the bottom half regularly wear them out faster.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:12 pm

We are getting a little off topic but, will make a comment reference deposits in the fuel tank.

My '97 ZR2 's gas gauge resided frozen below empty for over a year. I had not been dumping the remainder of the cans of Sea Foam into the gas tank after using it to clean my injectors.

I started adding it to the gas and the needle in the gas gauge began moving again. It didn't cure it but, it had erratic movement after being frozen for over a year. That tends to make me believe that something in it was coated. I don't know if they have "floats" or not but, I think that if I had stepped up the Sea Foam as an additive it may have completely unstuck the sensor.

BTW.........was a solid 100% Shell 87 octane user.

jeff024 · Post by **jeff024** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:59 pm

fuel drop off Change that fuel filter, I changed mine yesterday and wow what a diffrence you can really tell when you get into it to pass someone.

Steve2003 · Post by **Steve2003** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:38 pm

Jeff024

How many miles do you have on your CC? Is this the first time you have changed your fuel filter? I have 33,000 on my truck, do you suggest I change mine?

Steve

jeff024 · Post by **jeff024** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:16 pm

yes change it the owners manual says every 30000 miles . This is my first time and I just hit 60000 miles on my 14month old 2004

but from now on I will do like HenryJ and change it every 15000 . what an improvement.I think it took me 10-15 mins and only because I had to remove the bracket the filter wouldnt slide out but it was still easy.Its located on the frame rail just about under the driver door.

F U E L F I L T E R

Steve2003 · Post by **Steve2003** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:21 pm

Thanks, Going to do that right now! Tanks for the link!

Steve2003 · Post by **Steve2003** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:01 pm

Well I got the fuel filter changed, it took me about 20 min. I got the old filter off ok but had a little trouble getting the new one on. I did not remove the bracket but I did spray a little silicone on the new one and it helped slip it on! Before I found this site I would have never put this on my self, I would of had the Dealer do it when it when in for service. This is getting kind of fun!!!

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:06 pm

Steve2003 wrote:...Before I found this site I would have never put this on my self, I would of had the Dealer do it when it when in for service....

You have to save money somewhere

all the mods are expensive

jeff024 · Post by **jeff024** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:15 pm

yeah i bought the filter about 2 months ago and have been putting it off cause I really didnt wanna get fuel all over me but in the end I dont thing more then maybe 2tablespoons came out and I caught it all on a rag.I have already bought a new 1 for the next 15000 miles.

but the trans I will have a shop do it that purges the entire system and maybe install a drain on the pan.

Steve2003 · Post by **Steve2003** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:58 pm

HJ wrote:You have to save money somewhere all the mods are expensive

You are right! I had to trade from getting my ORI light bar powder coated chromed and leave it black for now in order to get the HPPIII. The mod's, they never end!

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:58 pm

Steve2003 wrote:... The mod's, they never end!

You're telling me?
I've been at it a few years longer than you and I have a couple more that I am working on for this month

Steve2003 · Post by **Steve2003** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:08 pm

I would say your right, I have only been at it a couple months. By the way what kind of fuel treatment additive do you use? I don't remember seeing what product you use. I do know to stay away from the techron and the slick 50.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:31 pm

I can't say that I have an exclusive favorite. I have used STP, Valvoline, Echlin, and ocasionally Seafoam.

I probably have used the Valvoline the most since it is cheaper than some, where I buy. I just use the synthetic treatment , not the more expensive complete system cleaner.

jeff024 · Post by **jeff024** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:02 am

Im giving the Lucas a try the bottle treats 100 gallons and I think it was $8.99

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:52 am

I try to use a different brand every 4000 miles. Lately I have been using Prestone 0-60 synthetic injector cleaner with octane booster in between oil changes, and Lucas, Valvoline (synthetic), and Redline at each oil change (4000 miles). I am also trying Mobil 1's new 15,000 mile fully synthetic oil in the CC. I will probably only let it go for 12,000 miles with a filter change halfway through. I have talked to a few people that have run this oil, and they told me when they finally changed their oil after 13,000 miles that it was still clean looking and not dark like most oils get after only 3,000 miles. When I change it @ 12,000 miles I will let you all know how it looks.

Steve

jeff024 · Post by **jeff024** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:44 am

I just changed mine and used the new mobil 1 oil filter only down side it was $12.00

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:02 am

jeff024 wrote:I just changed mine and used the new mobil 1 oil filter only down side it was $12.00

The K&N oil filters I use are the same price!

I have been considering trying the newer Mobil 1 oil filters. Maybe when I reach the halfway mark (6,000 miles) I will try a Mobil filter. Jeff024, was the Mobil filter you bought the short one or the longer one? I like using the longer filters for more oil capacity and filtration.

Steve

jeff024 · Post by **jeff024** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:54 pm

its what ever 1 the book called for at pepboys same length at what came stock I believe

jeff024 · Post by **jeff024** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:55 pm

its what ever 1 the book called for at pepboys same length at what came stock I believe .I also installed a Quick Drain about 2 oil changes and I can tell ya that thing makes it nice 0 mess.

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:43 am

Just noticed this:

63. Advise the customer to change brands of fuel.

That comes from the TSB on this subject. New design 96-up SFI injectors!

Country_Guy · Post by **Country_Guy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:42 am

Would any of you guys recommend Lucas fuel treatment and their trans additive that they sell? I have been considering both. The trans additive because mine is now high mileage. IDK if it actually helps but I have heard no complaints and had it recommended. The fuel system treatmet is simply because I have read reviews that people that have used the Lucas fuel treatment as well as the engine treatment are getting longer life and a little better gas mileage. Even Lucas says its not a miracle cure all but says it does help.

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:46 am

I would not recommend adding anything to the transmission. Service it regularly.

I have no idea what Lucas Fuel treatment does. The main thing is to read what it does. If it coats and protects, run screaming. If it is inexpensive and cleans, give it a shot. Regular cleanings with mild cleaners are better than one harsh cleaner.

Rebel-Chevy · Post by **Rebel-Chevy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:36 am

did anyone ever use acetone in there gas?

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:11 pm

Rebel-Chevy wrote:did anyone ever use acetone in there gas?

Not a very good idea.
There are many solvents that can offer temporary enhancements, but you may suffer the consequences by drying out or damaging fuel system components.

Rebel-Chevy · Post by **Rebel-Chevy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:51 pm

really? my buddys dad has used it for years. from what i know hes never had a problem.

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:02 pm

In a late model fuel injected vehicle?
I think you will find more cost effective methods and safer too.

Rebel-Chevy · Post by **Rebel-Chevy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:04 pm

i think mostly subaru's

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:13 pm

Rebel-Chevy wrote:i think mostly subaru's

Ok, that makes sense

Trying to speed up warping the heads and trashing valve guides. I can't blame him. An early grave for those is desirable sometimes

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:50 am

The guys at my work swear by Marvel Mystery Oil. I ran it in my last car in the oil and gas and the car was stilling going at 250k miles. Anyone else think this is good stuff? Any negative effects?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:43 am

green02crew wrote:The guys at my work swear by Marvel Mystery Oil..............................

I have heard that too. I am leary but, then I was leary of Sea Foam. What kind of company do you work for. If, it is a real estate company versus an automotive repair shop might have some bearing here.

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:13 pm

Haha yeah I work for the Mount Washington Cog Railway... A lot of the guys have automotive knowledge but just personal experience not school for it or anything. But they're all really mechanically inclined.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:34 pm

green02crew wrote:The guys at my work swear by Marvel Mystery Oil. I ran it in my last car in the oil and gas and the car was stilling going at 250k miles. Anyone else think this is good stuff? Any negative effects?

I use it in the gas from time to time for extra lubrication.

It also seems to help the erratic fuel gauge problem.

Overall I think it's a good product!

Steve

04crewvt · Post by **04crewvt** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:23 am

I ran Marvel in my Nova for years after regular gas disappeared. It took the place of the lead in keeping things lubricated and running smoothly. I have not tried it in any modern vehicle but of any additive I think it's a very good product.