What Trailmaster says....

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:24 pm

Sorry I didn't post this earlier. Straight from the horses mouth. I asked the following questions, and then got the response from Trailmaster at the bottom:

-----Original Message-----
From: mikeh3235 [SMTP:mikeh3235@........]
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 4:38 PM
To: Kevin Lake
Subject: S-10 application

Hi,

I own an S-10 Crew Cab 4x4. I have heard and read from dealers that your 5" suspension kit for the late model GM S-series line is not recommended for the S-series Extended Cabs or Crew Cabs. I never hear specifically that it won't work, just not "recommended".

However, everything I hear on the internet forums from people that have installed them on their trucks is that the Extended Cab and Crew Cab suspension is the same as on the standard cab trucks, and they are running it on them and it works just fine.

Could you please tell me exactly why the recommendation is made to not install the 5" kit on the Extended Cab and Crew Cab, or exactly what part of the lift kit is not recommended or causes a problem? Or is it that the Extended Cab and Crew Cab weigh more than the SWB model and your kit is not rated for the additional weight?

Please help. The "recommended" lift options for the S-series Crew Cabs is very limited. Thanks.

Mike H.
Orlando, FL

-----Trailmaster's response-----
From: "Jake Downing" <jdowning@sb-tm.com>
To: "mikeh3235" <mikeh3235@..........>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 1:10 PM
Subject: RE: S-10 application

The reason it is not recommended is that the kit was designed for the regular cab. The extra cab models usually have a longer rear driveshaft that is the reason that it is not recommended.

thanks,
jake

Sounds like maybe they were concerned with rear driveshaft vibration due to the change in the angle.

quickbiker · Post by **quickbiker** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:31 pm

I think it's the front drive shaft they should be worried about! Gee. Big deal. If the drive shaft has vibration, that's just normal with lifts and varies quite a bit from each vehicle. One person may not have any problems, while another may have alot of vibration. But that can be fixed easily, just something that one should expect when doing a lift, then won't be disappointed. There are people that can balance or make something custom to fix it. There is a fix for anything!

Dragonmaster · Post by **Dragonmaster** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:29 pm

usually the vibration that results can be fixed with angled shims between the leaf springs and the axle perches. Any driveline shop should be able to sell you some shims and you can experient with what angle works best to get rid of the vibe. It usually takes a day to figure out so you wouldn't want to have the shop do it as the labour charge would be outrageous.

quickbiker · Post by **quickbiker** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:54 pm

Yea, I've seen that done also. But if you look at mine, there is not much of an angle, hardly at all, partly because of how long it is, it takes alot of lift to make an angle.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:23 pm

ya, that was dumb response. you should email him back and thank him for the blow off ignorant attitude that he gave you

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:13 am

I e-mailed him back and asked exactly what the "concern" for the rear driveshaft was. I thought it was a weak response too.

Quickbiker, does the rear axle flip mount from TM appear to offset your axle forward slightly? I can't tell from your pics. Was the spring pin hole dead center over the axle tube?

I'm designing my rear axle flip now (reconstruction of the AIM kit). Their kit offset the axle forward by 1/2" on the spring pack. The spring pin would be 1/2" behind dead center over the axle tube. I noticed this and was curious as to why.

So I did some measuring on the truck and put the rear axle/spring assembly into AutoCAD to look at the geometry. The front spring mount is 7" lower than the rear, so our spring is at a slight angle from horizontal. If the axle is moved under the spring (5") and clamped to the same position, it moves to the rear about 0.56" due to the springs angle. So they offset it 0.5" to the front on the spring pack to keep it centered in the wheel well and not pull it 1/2" out of the t-case.

I also noticed that the axle is already offset 1" forward on the spring pack midpoint as it comes from the factory. The center pin is not at the leaf midpoint.

I hope to be finished fabbing my mounts this weekend. Maybe next weekend I'll be able to do the flip.

Quickbiker, did you weld your mounts to your axle tube top? In your pics it looked like you put a short bead on. Is there any concern for the heat damaging the axle shaft inside the axle tube if you weld on the axle tube?

quickbiker · Post by **quickbiker** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:45 am

Tell you the truth, I never thought much about the angle of the dangle! But seriously, I did look at it, and it looked good, so I never worried about it. And It does seem to move the axle out just a tad (meaning out from the tranny, but probably forward on the springs), can't tell how much now though. The more experience buddy that helped me out, said it would be a good idea to put a short weld on the perches to the axle, which sounded good to me also. I'm no expert, but it hasn't broke yet, it was a short duration weld, so if any, just a bit of the metal was affected. And being at the top of the axle, I don't think it's as detrimental as the bottom of the axle where it is likely to break if it did break.

Well, I am off to start putting in my locker today! Yehaaaaw!

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:31 am

quickbiker wrote:The more experience buddy that helped me out, said it would be a good idea to put a short weld on the perches to the axle, which sounded good to me also. I'm no expert, but it hasn't broke yet, it was a short duration weld, so if any, just a bit of the metal was affected. And being at the top of the axle, I don't think it's as detrimental as the bottom of the axle where it is likely to break if it did break.

I don't think your in danger of breaking anything. The danger would be to possibly burn through the outer axle tube and/or damage the internal shaft or seals or something, while you actually were making the weld. Not having ever disassembled an axle, I don't know if there are any seals in the area of the spring perches, or if there is any danger of heat damage to them ot the axle shaft. HenryJ, what are your experiences with welding on an assembled axle tube? Go or no-go?

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:02 am

Mike H. wrote:The danger would be to possibly burn through the outer axle tube and/or damage the internal shaft or seals or something, while you actually were making the weld. Not having ever disassembled an axle, I don't know if there are any seals in the area of the spring perches, or if there is any danger of heat damage to them ot the axle shaft. HenryJ, what are your experiences with welding on an assembled axle tube? Go or no-go?

Go, I think most of the concerns are addressed above. The seals are outside the wheel bearings and I doubt that you will develop enough heat to do damage.

I wouldn't be afraid to weld it with a wire feed, an arc welder could get hot enough to burn through, so a little more care would have to be taken.

The biggest danger would be setting the gearlube on fire, I'd try to keep the heat to a minimum.

You are only trying to keep the mount from rotating, the U-bolts do the job of holding things together, so no need to get carried away.

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:17 am

HenryJ wrote:Go, I think most of the concerns are addressed above. The seals are outside the wheel bearings and I doubt that you will develop enough heat to do damage.

I wouldn't be afraid to weld it with a wire feed, an arc welder could get hot enough to burn through, so a little more care would have to be taken.

The biggest danger would be setting the gearlube on fire, I'd try to keep the heat to a minimum.

You are only trying to keep the mount from rotating, the U-bolts do the job of holding things together, so no need to get carried away.

Carried away? Me?

Any idea what the axle tube thickness is? I've got a Lincoln Pro-Mig 175 (220 volt), set up with 0.045 Innershield wire. I've been using it with thick stuff. On a high setting it is possible to burn through 3/16" easily, but much harder with 1/4", and not really possible thicker than that. What do you figure the tube thickness is: 1/8", 3/16", schedule 40? I mic'ed it at 2.630 OD, but I have no idea of the wall thickness.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 9:52 am

Mike H. wrote:
Any idea what the axle tube thickness is? I've got a Lincoln Pro-Mig 175 (220 volt), set up with 0.045 Innershield wire. I've been using it with thick stuff. On a high setting it is possible to burn through 3/16" easily, but much harder with 1/4", and not really possible thicker than that. What do you figure the tube thickness is: 1/8", 3/16", schedule 40? I mic'ed it at 2.630 OD, but I have no idea of the wall thickness.

I'd have to guess , but I'd say between 3/16 and 1/4.

You're right the .045 might get hot enough to burn through if you don't keep it moving

Do you have a spool , tips and wheels to run .035 ?

I like to use a "mild steel" .035 wire and Argon/CO2 mix for most of the chassis work.

Less heat = smaller heat effected zone.

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:45 am

HenryJ wrote:I'd have to guess , but I'd say between 3/16 and 1/4.

You're right the .045 might get hot enough to burn through if you don't keep it moving Do you have a spool, tips and wheels to run .035 ?

I like to use a "mild steel" .035 wire and Argon/CO2 mix for most of the chassis work. Less heat = smaller heat effected zone.

I have the .035 Innershield. It came with a small roll of that with tips etc. But 2 weeks ago I converted to the .045 to give me the ability to weld up to 5/16. The .035 Innershield is not recommended for up to that thickness. It is neater, but I need to be able to weld thicker stuff. The spring perches I'm fabbing are 1/4" and 3/8" steel, and the reinforcement I'm adding behind the front bumper is 1/4" and heavier structural steel.

Also the MIG wire/gas set-ups for mine (.025 and .030 L-56) are not recommended for over 10ga/0.135" thickness (using the .030 L-56 with 75/25 gas mix). Plus I don't want to screw with the gas, until I do some stainless or aluminum.

When I weld on the axle tubes, I'll set for 10ga/.135". I used that on the frame and did not burn through. That should be safe enough for the axle.

Crew02 · Post by **Crew02** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:11 pm

I think that their comment about the rear drive shaft is pretty week. After installing lifts on Wranglers for years, 5" of lift on a drive shaft that long should not be a problem. The rear drive shaft on a wrangler is a incredible length of around 14". With a 4" lift, trailmaster, rancho, and procomp all supply 1" spacers to lower the transfer case enough to correct the drive line. With a 2" lift they don't supply anything. I would think that with the length of our drive shafts, you could install 2 or 3 degree shim to correct any issues. I maybe wrong, but our trucks are not that much longer than the ext cab S-10, are they? Does any body know? I have helped install the trailmaster on two S-10 blazers in the past, and I can't think of where there would be a problem.

quickbiker · Post by **quickbiker** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:20 pm

Yea. I like the lift in combination with the Realift tbar relocators. I've had my lift on since April 02. It's a great lift kit.

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:36 pm

Crew02 wrote:I would think that with the length of our drive shafts, you could install 2 or 3 degree shim to correct any issues. I maybe wrong, but our trucks are not that much longer than the ext cab S-10, are they? Does any body know?

They are both the same wheelbase - 122.9".

Crew02 · Post by **Crew02** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:04 pm

So if they are both the same wheel base and the kit is ok for the Ext Cab, then what is the problem with the crew?

quickbiker · Post by **quickbiker** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:43 am

Exactly.

NTXCrew · Post by **NTXCrew** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:31 am

quickbiker wrote:Exactly.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:35 am

Crew02 wrote:So if they are both the same wheel base and the kit is ok for the Ext Cab, then what is the problem with the crew?

i hate sales people that are ignorant

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:48 am

Crew02 wrote:So if they are both the same wheel base and the kit is ok for the Ext Cab, then what is the problem with the crew?

The kit is "not recommended" for either the extended cab OR crew cab. Standard cab only.

adrenalnjunky · Post by **adrenalnjunky** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:35 am

I also like the fact that both Performance Accessories and Trailmaster both say that their product is not designed for use in conjunction with the other's.

TM says You shouldnt combine a BL and a Susp. Lift, and PA says that thier BL isnt designed to work on a Suspension lifted vehicle.

LOL--gotta love our legal system, and plausible deniability.

Dragonmaster · Post by **Dragonmaster** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:13 am

It all comes down to legality and everybody afraid to stick their necks out a little. I can't see there being a problem with lifting either and ext cab or crew cab. The only two things I can see being a problem with the ext or crew cab is if the pinion angle wasn't quite right and caused vibration or if the kit wasn't designed to hold the extra weight of them, in which case they would not recommend the kit for the reg cab either as the combined vehicle weight and payload weight,for the reg cabs, exceed that of the crew and ext cabs. If I had the cash I'd put the lift on with no hesitation what so ever.

adrenalnjunky · Post by **adrenalnjunky** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:52 am

me either -- I'm doing the BL as soon as I can and 31's, and then saving up for the TM or Superlift 6 inch if it's ever released and 33's. But there's a huge cash outlay there since I'll have to re-gear for it and buy wheels.

Crew02 · Post by **Crew02** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:52 am

Ok, Trailmaster says that it is not ok for the Ext Cad either... Hum... But the shorter wheel base will create a greater drive line angle which is susposed to be the problem...

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:55 pm

Dragonmaster wrote:It all comes down to legality and everybody afraid to stick their necks out a little. I can't see there being a problem with lifting either and ext cab or crew cab. The only two things I can see being a problem with the ext or crew cab is if the pinion angle wasn't quite right and caused vibration or if the kit wasn't designed to hold the extra weight of them, in which case they would not recommend the kit for the reg cab either as the combined vehicle weight and payload weight,for the reg cabs, exceed that of the crew and ext cabs. If I had the cash I'd put the lift on with no hesitation what so ever.

What I'm thinking is "liability control". The problem I see is the extra weight of the ext cab or crewcab combined with the 5" of lift creating a possible roll over problem. Certainly the Crewcab is going to be a lot more top heavy when lifted. They are just trying to save their tails from possible lawsuits by not recommending the kits for our trucks. The only thing that doesn't fit is that they sell lifts for other trucks that are much higher/heavier. Just a thought.

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:14 pm

Nope. here is the update:

From: mikeh3235 [SMTP:mikeh3235@.........]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 5:31 PM
To: Jake Downing
Subject: Re: S-10 application

I missed your response until now. Thanks.

One more question: Are you concerned with rear drive shaft vibration,
weakness, or what? It looks like your axle relocation kit moves the axle
slightly forward on the springs once it is installed under them.
Please let me know. There are a lot of S-10 Crew Cab owners very interested in your lift. Thanks.

Mike

From: "Jake Downing" <jdowning@sb-tm.com>
To: "mikeh3235" <mikeh3235@.........>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: S-10 application

Rear vibration is the major concern here. We have not installed one of these kits on a crew cab. I believe it is the same frame as the extra cab, but, I am not sure. Your local dealer can tell you if this is the same frame.

thanks,
jake

----

Seems like they are concerned with rear drivetrain vibration.

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:32 pm

And the next, hot off the press:

From: mikeh3235 [SMTP:mikeh3235@........]
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 4:10 PM
To: Jake Downing
Subject: Re: S-10 application

The local dealer (4 Wheel Parts in Orlando ) will not even consider or discuss installing the lift on my truck unless it is "recommended" by Trailmaster. So it becomes a do-it-yourself proposition. I am doing a custom axle flip myself now. The extended cab and crew cabs have identical wheelbases (122.9").

Thanks.
Mike H. - Orlando

From: "Jake Downing" <jdowning@sb-tm.com>
To: "mikeh3235" <mikeh3235@........>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: S-10 application

This should work but that is a decision that you will have to make as there will be no warranty due to this type of application.

thanks,
jake

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:26 pm

Mike H. wrote:Nope. here is the update:

Your local dealer can tell you if this is the same frame.

thanks,

jake

.

anybody that knows anything know that the dealer dont know nothing about what they sell....so therefore, i declare the man an idiot.

can i get a second?

Mike H. · Post by **Mike H.** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:36 pm

I'm thinking so. I've heard of long NARROW shafts do what is called "roping" and causing vibration. But ours is light and large diameter, so I don't think that is going to be a problem.

Bottom line is: Quickbiker, you driving a rolling vibrator?

I will know soon, as I am doing the rear SOA in 2 weeks if at all possible. I've just about got my parts fabbing complete.