Still takes forever to crank over...

[ApproachMedium]

Okay so I been holding off on posting anything about this since I havnt seen my truck in a month untill today finally. I had dropped it off at my mechanic to have the fuel injection system fixed since I figured the injector was leaking causing my misfire on the #3 cylender. Long story short, my injector was leaking as if it wasnt even there, my pressure regulator was good, and they changed the cat since the dumping of unburned fuel kinda destroyed that on me.

Now with all of that done, i figured the long cranking issue would have been gone. I thought this issue was brought on by the dumping of the fuel from the injector flooding out the cylnders. Is there something else that may have been overlooked? If I recall correctly there is something on the fuel tank that needed to be replaced they mentioned to me but in their parts list it is not listed. Also it always starts, I have never had an issue with it failing to start it just always takes a while of turning it over before it fires up.

Parts they did replace were:
Spark plug #3
Intake Gaskets
Centrak Injector
Fuel Filter
Distributor Cap
Ignition Rotor
Ignition Wires
ERG Gasket
PCV Valve
Cat Converter

[s10 again]

I don't know if this applies to our s10s or not but thought I would trow it out there. I have a Jeep xj with hard start problem as well. It spins and spins then finely it hits and goes. Me and other Jeep owners have tracked down one almost always overlooked part. It is a check valve that prevents all the fuel in the system from draining back to the tank. The way we test for it is to cycle the ignition key on and off in 10 second intervals without trying to start. then go ahead and try to crank it. If this works and it starts right up then most likely the fuel is draining back to the tank.

The reason this works is because when you turn the key the fuel pump only runs for a few seconds then shuts off till the engine is running. By cycling the key before starting the pump runs enough to fill the lines and filter and build pressure.This also works if you run out of gas and you can't get it to start back up. You might give it a shot as there is nothing to lose.


I'm only guessing that our trucks have a check valve or something to keep all the fuel from draining to the tank.


Chris.

[border man]

I believe the check valve on our trucks is built into the fuel sender assembly (pump).

[ApproachMedium]

Well it must be the check. I went out earilier and the truck sat over 2 hours in between both starts, both times I used the on off method to prime the fuel up and it turned right over in a second after doing it 3 times.

Glad to know the check is in my fuel pump. The reserves have been drained to pay for this recent repair so it looks like ill be waiting till the summer to do it myself.

[s10 again]

You might be able to install a check valve inline near the tank. I can't recall the specs on it but some of the Jeep guy's found one that was for either a BMW or Benz that worked and was like under 30$. I would try the key trick some more at different times to make sure you didn't just get lucky tonight. Also beware that if the check valve is going bad it could get worse.

I did not start looking for mine till one day I had my front tires replaced. The tire shop jacked up my front end and once they were done I almost gave up on the Heep ever starting again. Parking with the front uphill even a little made the problem 2x as bad.

Keeping the tank near full may help some.

Chris.

[ApproachMedium]

Ut oh... I keep mine parked on a slight uphill incline to keep the water out of the bed..... I dont think im helping here am I!!!

I guess I will have to look around for a check valve then. Im sure its something I can figure out by hose sizes etc. So how near the tank would it have to be? Directly ontop of it? Or could it be out a ways?

Im pretty sure after all this work that has been done it must be the check valve since it sounds very logical. The engine no longer is running funny or has any funky idle or acceleration from the overdose of fuel so it cant be flooded out. Is there any other possabilities other than the check valve that would cause this same symptom? My fuel pressure regulator is also in good working order as they tested it when the service was done.

I will try the "priming" anytime I go to start it now and see how that goes.

[s10 again]

The only other thing that comes to mind would be the crank sensor but I don't think the key trick will work for that.

I was just googling off and searched for inline check valves I found one of the jeep threads about it might be an interesting read.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/who-h ... ve-684229/

Also found this from that thread but you would have to check the line size.

http://djvmerchandise.com/pro1163391.html


Might help.

Chris.

[ApproachMedium]

Chris thank you for all your help and information. I will definatly look into this and will post my results later on.

[killian96ss]

With a fuel pressure guage attached to the schrader valve and the system primed (key on, engine off), how long does it take for the pressure to bleed down? If it takes several minutes you are ok, however if it drops right away, you need a new fuel pump.

Steve

[s10 again]

Chris thank you for all your help and information. I will definatly look into this and will post my results later on.

eh, we try right I'm just an old shade tree. But you are welcome.

Chris.

[ApproachMedium]

With a fuel pressure guage attached to the schrader valve and the system primed (key on, engine off), how long does it take for the pressure to bleed down? If it takes several minutes you are ok, however if it drops right away, you need a new fuel pump.

Steve

Wish i had the tools for that and knew where it was. After a week of driving it around etc its gotten worse. Brought it in for 4 new tires today and the truck had issues starting up every time now. My friend who did the tires for me said its definatly the fuel pressure regulator as they always go. So far two mechanic friends that have looked at it said thats what i need to change.

Now the next question, where is that, and how the heck do i swap it out? Can I do it myself?

They also forgot to change out my Evap sensor thingy on the fuel tank. I cant remember right now what its called exactly but that error code came up in my computer again and makes the SES come on every other time you drive the truck. I assume thats something thats simple to change but requires the fuel tank to be dropped correct?

[HenryJ]

... My friend who did the tires for me said its definatly the fuel pressure regulator as they always go. So far two mechanic friends that have looked at it said thats what i need to change.

I disagree with them. The fuel pressure regulator is only functioning with the engine running. It would not affect the engine starting. In my experience the regulators have been very reliable. I have probably only had to replace one, to 20 fuel pumps, in comparison.

Do the fuel system checks. If you can not do them yourself, have them done.

They also forgot to change out my Evap sensor thingy on the fuel tank. I cant remember right now what its called exactly but that error code came up in my computer again and makes the SES come on every other time you drive the truck. I assume thats something thats simple to change but requires the fuel tank to be dropped correct?

That sensor has come with the fuel pump modules that I have installed. I find it hard to believe they "forgot" to replace it.

I would say you are still in the market for a new fuel pump. Unfortunately, that is where I would have started. It really sound to me like they started at the wrong end.
I don't have all the information though. Replacing the fuel injection spider and catalytic converter is very expensive. Knowing it had a code for the fuel tank sensor and starting problems, I would have done the fuel pressure tests first to diagnose the problems. That will tell you exactly if it is the pump, regulator or injectors.

Did your cat get replaced under warranty? You do know that the warranty on those goes well beyond what the rest of the truck had, right? I have seen the precats fail on our trucks, but personally I have never seen one of the main cats fail on a late model s-series. They are a pretty good cat. High flow and a good design. I'm not saying that it is not possible, just that a precat is more likely.

They only replaced plug #3? That sounds a little strange. If one plug failed or needed replacement, change them all.

Sorry. It just sounds a little like you're getting taken for a ride. Anyone who is relating a delayed starting issue to the fuel pressure regulator needs to be watched closely.

[roadrunner]

You'd be wise to listen to what HenryJ is telling you. He's been round the block a few times on issues like this and is giving you the straight of it. I agree with not trusting the info you are getting from the people who've looked at it so far. Not to put anybody down but sounds like if you told em you had a radio problem they'd try to sell you new tires.

[s10 again]

^^
Ditto x 3.

Not saying the people you have giving you advice are trying to mess with you. But they don't seen to know enough about EFI to give good advice.

Is the key trick still working?

Chris.

[ApproachMedium]

The injector was infact bad, which is why it was changed. It was pouring fuel out instead of actually injecting it. MY mechanic said the regulator was FINE. My two friends however, say otherwise. I trust my mechanic and you guys a bit more.

Did your cat get replaced under warranty? You do know that the warranty on those goes well beyond what the rest of the truck had, right? I have seen the precats fail on our trucks, but personally I have never seen one of the main cats fail on a late model s-series. They are a pretty good cat. High flow and a good design. I'm not saying that it is not possible, just that a precat is more likely.

Cat was NOT under warranty. I paid to have to replaced 5 months ago by my own descision from the DTCs I was getting at the time. The truck at that time had over 200k on it. I put another 8,000 on it before it went in for this repair and it was messed up thanks to the unburnt fuel going thru the engine from the dumping injector.

They only replaced plug #3? That sounds a little strange. If one plug failed or needed replacement, change them all.

Sorry. It just sounds a little like you're getting taken for a ride. Anyone who is relating a delayed starting issue to the fuel pressure regulator needs to be watched closely.

Plug #3 was only changed because I only had about 8,000 miles on new platnium spark plugs I put in there about the same time I had the cat replaced. Along with that they replaced ALL Of my cables, cap and rotor. Since I have had this truck, ive put 4 caps and rotors on it in a matter of a year. Thanks to the screw holes being cracked in the distibutor it makes it very difficult for the stupid things to stay on the engine.

Again as clarification, the truck went in to pass inspection and I never mentioned to my mechanic about the delayed start. 2 mechanic friends of mine are saying this is what the problem is. I tend to believe you guys a bit more, and if my mechanic who worked on the truck said its fine it probably is. We have been going to him for years and has been very honest and relyable. It looks like Ill be venturing for a fuel pressure test and dropping my tank now that the weather is warmer.

[ApproachMedium]

^^
Ditto x 3.

Not saying the people you have giving you advice are trying to mess with you. But they don't seen to know enough about EFI to give good advice.

Is the key trick still working?

Chris.

Oh yea, key trick doesnt work anymore..... but it definatly doesnt hold pressure. Every time you turn the key the pump does engage, you can hear it. My previous GM cars etc would pump first keyturn after that nothing because there was pressure built up.

[jflatley]

Wondering if you have installed the fuel pump yet. I am starting to get teh same issue. A lot less severe on mine at this point. BUT....

I have the fuel pump but not the time to do it. You know how the universe works, when you have the time, you don't have the money, when you have the money (or fuel pump in this case) you don't have the time.

[killian96ss]

The pressure test will tell you a lot. The system should hold pressure after priming. If not replace the pump! You can get a good pressure tester with a bleed valve for under $50 which is cheaper than 1 trip to a mechanic.

Steve

[ApproachMedium]

I changed the fuel pump back in October and cured the problem completely. Along with my consistent check engine light, which only comes on now and then for the misfire at #3.