Bilstein Shocks

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:53 am

I have been back and forth about ten times a day for the last week , on which shock to get. For me it came down to Rancho or Bilstein.

The Rancho RSX17000:

Pros- Local dealer, lifetime warranty, cost ($45 ea.), convoluted boots.

Cons-Twin tube design (less heat transfer, cavatation causing fade), spring controlled valving (springs can fail) , Rancho's rep. for harsh ride. (this one is supposed to be good, but I've heard complaints about all the others).

Bilstein Heavy Duty:

Pros-Monotube design, no springs,personal experience, lifetime warranty, longevity(truly a lifetime shock), couldn't find one person who had something bad to say.

Cons-No local dealer, boots are not sealed (uses plastic shield on the new ones) , cost ($55)

I'm not sure if it is the right decision, but I ordered the Bilsteins.

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:14 am

Your cracking me up..... from what you typed, cost,.... and then buying the more expensive one's that you have to order.... lol

Let me know what you think... when you get them installed.

I'm actually having a similar problem myself deciding on which shocks to buy. But your anguish sounds worse than mine.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:50 pm

yes brule, sounds like too much thought went into that one. i would of gotten the bilstiens from the get go. of course i am on a tight budget and had to go cheap

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Nov 16, 2002 9:06 am

I'm going to have a while to save up the money for the front shocks. They are now on back-order. Expected to be received... March 2003

Oh... well ...patience is one of those things I need to work on

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:49 pm

How many miles did you guys get on your stock shocks before you found it necessary to replace them? It's gonna be awhile before I do anything else to my truck, but I've been thinking about replacing the shocks being the next thing that I do. My truck has about 18,000 miles on it, and as far as I know, it's still riding on the factory shocks.

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:33 pm

I would say that mine were noticeably mushy at 15000 mi.

The rear shocks started leaking and were warrantied at 14000 mi. and the left front is leaking now at 18000 mi.

I think that GM tends to put soft shocks on most of thier cars from the factory. I prefer a firmer ride.

We have owned a couple Cavaliers and they both needed shocks from day one. They had a tendancy to "float" down the road, much the same as my CC does now.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 9:52 pm

well i guess i did over do my shocks. i replaced them at 39k!!!! mabey thats why they were so weak

i was bouncing pretty good down the road.

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 9:56 pm

My Bilstein rear shocks arrived today

They look good and DO have the convoluted boots! I can only hope that the fronts do too. Either way will be Ok. The invoice shows the fronts B/O until 12/06/02, at least that is better than March.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:32 pm

it took me 5 minutes to install mine. let me know how they compare to your old ones when you compress them with your hand. it was such a big difference in my case. also, when expanded, my bilstiens and stock shocks were the same length, but when compressed, the bilstiens were an inch longer

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 5:44 am

Yours came off a ZR2, didn't they? That explains the difference in length. It was probably a good Idea to use a little longer shock on the rear for yours with the shackles.

I'm sure there will be a big difference in stiffness

and I'm pleased to see that they mount inverted! That saves a lot of rock damage over the years

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:38 am

HenryJ wrote:Yours came off a ZR2, didn't they? That explains the difference in length. It was probably a good Idea to use a little longer shock on the rear for yours with the shackles.

I'm sure there will be a big difference in stiffness and I'm pleased to see that they mount inverted! That saves a lot of rock damage over the years

inverted

upsidedown from stock position? where the boot will shoe at the bottom? how did you do that?

Conman · Post by **Conman** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:46 am

Rancho has in their instruction manual to NOT put on the boot and it does mount body up in the front while every other vehicle, they say mount boot side up. I looked under my Crew and the shock is mounted body up also. I can see why they say not to use the boot cause there is not much room there.

Con

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 6:32 pm

Con is right, the fronts on the older S-10s needed to be an inverted shock (body up), for clearance reasons (although I haven't checked my 2001, and can't say if the crew is that way for sure).

The Bilstein rears I got are inverted too! (boot down)

My old '86 S-10 Sport came with factory Bilsteins all four inverted.

The rocks kicked up by the front tires tend to bounce off the boots rather than denting the body of a regular shock. And what little dirt that does get inside the boots doesn't settle on the seals so they tend to last longer.

Update: The stock front shocks do mount body down. And the Bilstein Heavy duty fronts are body down as well.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Nov 24, 2002 5:30 pm

Thought I'd mention that I had to install new my new Bilstein rear shocks a little earlier than planned (see rant )

It did appear to raise the rear a little

After driving a few days, I'd say that this change will be at the top of my list for best mods. It really is a noticable difference

I had no idea that the stock shocks were getting so bad. The handling it much better and I don't even have the fronts on yet!

Update My Bilstein front shocks arrived today (nearly two weeks earlier than predicted)

they do have the convoluted boots also! I'll be shocked by Turkey day

I have to give a

to http://www.PerformanceProducts.com they had a good price, kept me informed and delivered promptly.

anvil · Post by **anvil** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:58 pm

HJ,

Just for future info, what did you specify to order the Bilstiens?

S-10/Sonoma Pick-up, or Blaser/Jimmy?

I had two GMC Sonomas with factory Bilsteins, nice shocks. No problem leaking at all.

I have Koni adjustables on my Miata. Good shock.

On my Jimmy, it did lean to one side, but the shocks never leaked. I traded the Jimmy in with around 25K miles on it.

I plan to hold onto the Crew for more than 15K miles, what you said the shocks go-away.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:13 pm

anvil wrote:Just for future info, what did you specify to order the Bilstiens?

S-10/Sonoma Pick-up, or Blaser/Jimmy?

Pretty sure I used 2001 S-10 pickup...Here's the part #'s I have from the receipt: Performance Products parts # 137179 and #137174 (qty 2 each)

More info: Bilstein

anvil · Post by **anvil** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:06 am

Thanks HJ.

I went to that site, very nice tip, Thanks.

Of course I won't be ready for a shock treatment for a while.

I do recall that the dealer wanted over one hundred dollares a peice for the Bilsteins that were on my 91 Sonoma. It turned out that I didn't need shocks, but it was the all to famous torsion bar rubber mount.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:42 pm

100 bucks is way too much for bilstiens. i think 65 is normal, right brule?

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:07 pm

Dealerships do charge a premium for the factory Bilsteins, I would believe that $100 is about what they would run through GM.

The aftermarket companies seem to all be selling them for just under $60. They best bargain I found was free shipping.

It is difficult to find bargains on the German built stuff. At least it seems that way to me. Hellas , Bilsteins, VW , Mercedes, etc. they all are pretty expensive. Well built , but pricey.

The only difference I could see (exterior) was that the aftermarket shock has the convoluted boot and the stock GM has the plastic shield instead. Might have been a GM spec. ?

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:47 pm

HenryJ wrote:
anvil wrote:Just for future info, what did you specify to order the Bilstiens?

S-10/Sonoma Pick-up, or Blaser/Jimmy?
Pretty sure I used 2001 S-10 pickup...Here's the part #'s I have from the receipt: Performance Products parts # 137179 and #137174 (qty 2 each)

More info: Bilstein

pretty good info here for the site. i will make a page with this info!

24digger · Post by **24digger** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:35 pm

anvil, you might consider autozone.com you can get them there for 49.95 ea. thats where I plan to get mine when I get some. I specified a 98 pickup to get them to come up.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:56 pm

24digger wrote:anvil, you might consider autozone.com you can get them there for 49.95 ea. thats where I plan to get mine when I get some. I specified a 98 pickup to get them to come up.

wow, thats a good price. i have seen them at autozone for 79 bucks too

rickscrewcab · Post by **rickscrewcab** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:02 pm

$59.95 each at www.allshocks.com...I just ordered mine.

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:55 am

GET READY FOR THE GREATEST SHOCK OF YOUR LIFE !!

rickscrewcab · Post by **rickscrewcab** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:44 am

Delivered in 3 days for $239.00. Free shipping too.

Not too shabby! I will be installing them next week.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:19 pm

if i crank the tbars should i get bigger shocks or regular?

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:21 pm

You will be well within the stock range.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:24 pm

ok cool. do your shox ever squeek from going thru mud or water? (you have the bilstiens right?) because my stock ones do sometimes .

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:28 pm

Stock shocks can make noise even without mud. They are poor at best.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:29 pm

yea. so your are a lot better?

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:31 pm

Huge difference.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:39 pm

sweet i think im going to pick some of those up then. do you ever have a problem with bottoming out/

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:39 am

HCO4x4 wrote:...........................do you ever have a problem with bottoming out/

nope

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:39 am

nice. do you have to set the pressure or something because my stock ones bottom out.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:21 am

Stock or OEM ones are 100% worthless when brand spanking new. You'll see for yourself when you pull your oem ones off and compress them. If, you are going to change yours then start soaking all the nuts and bolts daily for, at least, a week with PB Blaster or Sea Foam Deep Creep! Our rigs are getting some age on them and newer members are snapping bolts where, 3 yrs ago, wasn't a problem.

It might also help if, you complete your profile so, we know what we are dealing with, rust belt wise.

It might also help if, you perform a search before asking a question.

Bilstiengave me 17 threads

rickscrewcab · Post by **rickscrewcab** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Had the Bilsteins installed yesterday...

. Rides so much nicer, and I feel like I already have a bodt lift!

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:01 pm

awsome mine should be here tuesday. how much lift did it give you?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:57 am

There won't be any "lift" as a result of the Bilstien installation.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:42 pm

i didnt think so but he said it felt like a body lift lol. i got excited

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:38 pm

The Bilstien installation will please you even if, you don't gain .10" of lift. You will appreciate the difference immediately. If, you have them installed then make sure to have them pull one while you are there. Compress your stock one and then compress the Bilstien. I changed mine out with less than 1K on my rig. They are that bad!!!!

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:15 pm

yea ive heard you talking about it before. theyre pretty simple to change right?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:31 pm

HCO4x4 wrote:yea ive heard you talking about it before. theyre pretty simple to change right?

Not if, you have a little age on your truck! Start soaking it with PB Blaster daily for a week before you begin to work on a project. Two weeks would be better. If, you have no frozen bolts then an hr would be a decent time.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:21 pm

Just a question with a little twist. I know most on the forum like or use Bilsteins. I was told by a delivery company fleet mechanic that on all their delivery vans, which spend considerable time on rough dirt roads, they have abandoned gas-charged shocks in favor of oil charged only. His claim was not about handling but rather about durability. Claimed they would, in their experience, outlast all gas-charged they had tried by two or three to one ratio. Anybody else ever heard of this before?

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:36 pm

Sounds like he is not as well informed as he should be.
I think they went the route of the vehicle manufacturers and just buy cheap shocks to replace frequently. The nitrogen charge enhances the reaction time for the shock. I don't see it as a durability issue.
Bilstein is a lifetime shock. Look to the design.
I think you would find it easier to buy charged shocks rather than "uncharged". Charged are the norm today.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:21 pm

HenryJ wrote:Sounds like he is not as well informed as he should be.
I think they went the route of the vehicle manufacturers and just buy cheap shocks to replace frequently.
The nitrogen charge enhances the reaction time for the shock. I don't see it as a durability issue.
Bilstein is a lifetime shock. Look to the design.
I think you would find it easier to buy charged shocks rather than "uncharged". Charged are the norm today.

I think he is fairly knowledgeable as he has been a mechanic for 30+ yrs and the last 15 as fleet mechanic for this particular operation. I don't know which brand shocks they were using but do know they weren't cheap or oem. I am not advocating abandoning gas charged shocks and was just surprised when he told me this story. Also unless you buy really cheap shocks most reputable dealers will warranty them for life to the original purchaser. Yes, it is very difficult if not impossible for some vehicles to find anything other than gas charged these days. I was just curious if anyone else had ever heard of this before.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:43 pm

got my bisteins today

what an ugly color

but you huys said theyre the best so i trust theyll be great. cant wait to put them on tomorrow. ill post pics.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:17 pm

wow! what a difference. i havnt come close to bottoming out yet and i hit some nasty holes. two thumbs up for bilsteins.

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:27 am

I had a problem in the wind yesterday. Driving north and south with about a 20 mph west wind, it was all i could do to maintain a straight line. My speed was 55 to 60, I have new HD Bilsteins, Urathane Stabilizer Bushings, Torsion Bar lifted front 1 1/2 ", rear stock. As far as I can tell all my steering and suspension parts are sound. any Idea what else could be causing this Wind Drift ?

04crewvt · Post by **04crewvt** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:04 am

I have felt this wind drift since the day I got my truck. I did add a Rancho steering stabilizer shock which helped some but I figure we are basically driving vehicles with the aerodynamics of a brick with high centers of gravity and cross winds will always push it around.

okie s10 · Post by **okie s10** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:05 pm

Well I'm still rounding up parts to do the change-over on my truck. Guess I better throw some Bilstiens on the pile of parts. Shock question?

Gonna do 2" BL, 1.5" Tbar crank, 2" shackles, 31x10.50 tires.

Do I need stock length shocks or what? And ours are different than ZR2?

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:28 pm

i have that set up besides the shackles. im using the bilsteins henry j posted the link for on this page. theyre great. i know youll be fine in the front and i dont think the shackles will make much difference because i had to compress mine to get them in.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:05 pm

okie s10 wrote:Gonna do 2" BL, 1.5" Tbar crank, 2" shackles, 31x10.50 tires.

Do I need stock length shocks or what? And ours are different than ZR2?

You want stock length Bilsteins, and yes the ZR2 shocks are different so make sure you don't get those.

Steve

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Thu May 07, 2009 1:10 am

In talking about length, I've done an AAL and 2" lift shackles. When putting the shocks on, I had the truck on a lift and had to jack the rear wheels up so the shocks were able to reach. Normally, shouldn't the shocks need to be compressed slightly to install?

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu May 07, 2009 4:18 am

green02crew wrote:Normally, shouldn't the shocks need to be compressed slightly to install?

Perhaps. If the suspension is fully unloaded, then the shock should be close to fully extended.
Adding shackles you extend the amount the axle will drop, or increase articulation. ZR2 shocks may be a good way to go. Hobie added ZR2 shocks to the back of his truck after adding extended shackles , IIRC. He did run into the pitfalls of longer shackles too, but he wheeled offroad pretty aggressively.
If you don't fully extend the rear suspension often working within the stock shock length range may be fine. If you find yourself against the extended shock length often, a longer shock may be the answer.

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:38 pm

I just bought these shocks too...

YellowCrewCabber · Post by **YellowCrewCabber** » Fri May 08, 2009 4:04 pm

Hmm, When I installed the Bilsteins on mine I had to compress the rear shocks a whole bunch to get them to bolt up. I was concerned about the amount of down travel it had (less than 4 or 5 inches) But now with the new leaf kit the down travel has increased considerably. Maybe the Bilsteins I got for the rear are actually for the ZR2. I took a picture of it if you'd like a link to it.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri May 08, 2009 4:21 pm

YellowCrewCabber wrote:Hmm, When I installed the Bilsteins on mine I had to compress the rear shocks a whole bunch to get them to bolt up. .................

Did you have your rear axle on jack stands or a jack?

YellowCrewCabber · Post by **YellowCrewCabber** » Fri May 08, 2009 4:34 pm

Nope. Nothing was jacked up.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:42 pm

YellowCrewCabber wrote:Nope. Nothing was jacked up.

Then you're more of a man than I am. I tried compressing them but, could not hold them long enough to get them installed. You did it the same way as if, you had the axles on jack stands. Need to get the the tires off the ground with jack stands under the frame. Then they just slip on.

YellowCrewCabber · Post by **YellowCrewCabber** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:46 pm

f9k9 wrote:
YellowCrewCabber wrote:Nope. Nothing was jacked up.
Then you're more of a man than I am. I tried compressing them but, could not hold them long enough to get them installed. You did it the same way as if, you had the axles on jack stands. Need to get the the tires off the ground with jack stands under the frame. Then they just slip on.

LOL I figured that out when I was changing out the leaf springs. WAAAAAY easier. Doing things the hard way teaches you how to do it the easy way I guess.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:02 pm

YellowCrewCabber wrote:...........Doing things the hard way teaches you how to do it the easy way I guess.

The sad thing is that I already knew the lesson from working at a Sears auto center in college. I had to learn the lesson twice!

Jongo88 · Post by **Jongo88** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:18 pm

OK now I'm ready to get shocks I would like to know what is the difference from stock? I like the ride of my CC with the stock shocks. I don't want a hard ride. I like a soft ride. Everyone gets the Bilsteins and wow what a difference. What is it?

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:34 pm

It gets rid of the sea sick feeling and handles the corners better. Hard to put in words. Something to experience.

fallvitals · Post by **fallvitals** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:36 pm

Let me also ask in here, I searched couldnt find an answer, im sure the OEM replacment Bilsteins will work, but with a Boise kit and TB crank, do you need a longer bilstein? or will the oem replacements work just fine?

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:48 pm

OEM HD replacements are fine. You do not exceed the factory range of motion. It just moves it up some.

PGH04ZR5 · Post by **PGH04ZR5** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:45 pm

I threw my shocks on today and WOW!!! My rig just past 60K in miles and I think the shocks were shot along time ago but I didnt have an idea how bad they were until I drove it today.

I went boots up in the back and boots up in the front as I read on here,

really worth every penny, even if they weren't buy 3 get one free.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:10 pm

PGH04ZR5 wrote:I went boots up in the back and boots up in the front as I read on here,

Hopefully you meant "boots down in the back".
Rides like its on rails, huh?
Pretty amazing. Now you know why we try to get everyone to bump that mod to the front

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:23 pm

HenryJ wrote:Pros...lifetime warranty...

When did Bilsteins come out with lifetime warranty?

This is why I always got the Monroes from Napa cause I can
exchange them for new ones about every 40,000 or so

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:53 pm

My '97 ZR2 had them with a lifetime warranty. I think they have always had them. I knew my oem shocks were bad at 600 hundred miles and they were probably bad the day the truck was finished being built. Pull one off and work it in and out. Then try it with a Bilstien. It is a no brainer but, you have to listen or trust someone that has made the switch.

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Sat May 16, 2009 10:37 pm

I've always had good results with the Monroe's lifetime shocks,
but I may try the Bilsteins now that I have a new S10 to work with.

Any idea how they handle warranty replacement?

I assume you buy a new set, and ship the old ones
in and hope to get credit on your credit card?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sun May 17, 2009 4:52 am

Rockrz wrote:..........Any idea how they handle warranty replacement?.............

Not a clue in my 12 yrs of owning them.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:29 am

Rockrz wrote:Any idea how they handle warranty replacement?

Like Reed said, never had the need. http://www.bilstein.com/warranty.php
I have warranted lots of Monroes though. Over the counter swap at my local dealer.

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Sun May 17, 2009 7:46 am

Bilstein of America warrants its gas pressure shock absorbers against defects in workmanship and materials for as long as you, the original purchaser, own your car.

If at any time after purchase or installation, the shock malfunctions and Bilstein determines it to be defective, we will either replace it or repair it.

Sounds like they cover defects in workmanship and materials,
but not normal wear if the shocks simply wears out.

I can't imagine shocks not waering out at some point.

On the other hand, if they do have better technology maybe
their shocks would last 100,000 miles

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun May 17, 2009 9:32 am

Rockrz wrote:...I can't imagine shocks not waering out at some point.

On the other hand, if they do have better technology maybe
their shocks would last 100,000 miles

Read the whole warranty:

Bilstein warranty wrote:If at any time after purchase or installation, the shock malfunctions and Bilstein determines it to be defective, we will either replace it or repair it.

This is followed by what may and may not be covered. All I see refused is abuse and external damages. Still they send it in for inspection. Better than most ,IMO.

Go to their website and review the design. It is usually the springs that control valving that weaken and fail over time. Twin tube design not allowing half the oil to cool can also be a contributing factor.
Bilsteins have no springs to weaken and they are mono tube. The rear shocks on my old S-10 Have 190k miles on them. They are not new now, but the performance is still acceptable.

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Sun May 17, 2009 11:49 am

Bilstein warranty wrote:Bilstein determines it to be defective

I did read the whole warranty. The part above is what would make
me hesitate because they could easily say "these shocks just wore
out, they aren't "Defective" therefore they won't be replaced free"

The Monroe shocks are very decent, although I don't know if they
would be better than Bilsteins or not as far as technology is concerned.

However, I do know I can get them replaced by simply telling the
guys down at Napa that my old ones feel "mushy" and need to be replaced
which is what I've been doing about every 40 to 50k which is about
every 4 to 5 years for me.

I've never even read the Monroe warranty, but they must cover
normal wear since Napa keeps getting credit for sending my old
shocks back to Monroe.

The Bilstein warranty only says their product is covered from defects
in workmanship and materials, and Bilstein has to determine if the
shocks are covered or not which seems to be saying they have to
inspect them before deciding if they will be covered, or not.

Based on this alone, I think I'll stick with the Monroes since I can
exchange them down at Napa hassle free with no questions asked.

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