Hydrogen Generator

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:04 pm

I made one this past month and it works pretty well. i wired it into my truck today but fried all the wires so i can't tell about gains yet. Have any of you read about or tried to create one of these?

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:47 pm

Researched extensively. General operating idea is to generate small quantities of hydrogen and inject it as supplemental to existing fuel system. Claimed effect is to generate a more complete/hotter/quicker burn of fuel used in the cylinders. The only people I've heard extolling it's success are generally the ones trying to sell plans/books etc to build them. Not saying it won't work. Just skeptical because if you don't alter the engine management parameters to allow for a higher air/fuel ratio I think mileage gains would be slight if any.

You say you built one? Works pretty well? How can you tell? From your short post it appears you built a unit but had not installed it on a vehicle and when you did you "fried all the wires".

I'm sure all here on the forum including me are interested but none of us want to burn down our trucks trying to gain mileage. Keep us apprised of your experiences or gains if any. Also of any additional costs or equipment this might require such as larger alternators or electrical system modifications or engine management modifications to attain any gains.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:27 pm

One of the automotive teachers at my school made one and hes getting an extra 7 mpg. I haven't yet looked at his but I'm going to try soon. I didn't get a chance to fully replace the wires today but tomorrow I'll get that done and update this page. Oh, and I know its producing the hydrogen because I can see the bubbling and I ignited some of it.

Here's basically what I made but i used 8 razor blades.

Simple Hydrogen Cell

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:09 pm

Today I replaced the wiring with a thicker gauge. I drove about 10 miles to the gas station with my hydrogen cell on. My tank was about half full but when I calculated my mpg I saw improvement. Even using the hydrogen the little bit I did (10 miles out of 107), ampg went from 12.5 to 13.

The only negative thing I can see thus far is that I had to change the water when I got home because the bubbling had stopped. Adding more baking soda may help that and I'll try it tomorrow.

WileyHunter · Post by **WileyHunter** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:26 pm

I really doubt that you'd 'see' an increase within 10 miles of use...

You really need establish a baseline fuel consumption based on at least 4 tanks of gas before looking for your improvements. Then, run your HHO genny for the same # of tanks to compare.

Also, I can change my gas mileage by 1/2 mile per gallon just by changing my driving habits. Make sure that you don't influence the numbers by driving different under either sets of testing.

WH

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:12 am

I actually was kind of hard on the gas with that tank but your correct. Ill repost when I get definite data.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:58 pm

So, any further results yet? Inquiring minds want to know.
I have not tried building one of these things but with cruise control and scan guage and it's avg mpg function I think it would be pretty easy to prove/disprove effectiveness of any such device. It can be reset on the "fly" thus giving the operator the ability to clear at a given point and check results at another then "engage" any such device and repeat the test over the same course at the same speed and conditions the same day.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm

Here are pics of three a guy at work installed on his truck. I thought this was a bunch of crap but he swears he is getting 22 mph on a 1/2 ton Dodge 4x4 with a 360 and 35" tires.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj8/ ... erator.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj8/ ... rator1.jpg

This is on of many of this guys how to videos on you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZBOwoss ... playnext=1

Because I trust the guy I work with I am going to make my own and see what happens. If anyone is interested in knowing the results let me know and I will post them. If not you will never here about it again.

OpieOnCrack · Post by **OpieOnCrack** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:00 pm

I'd be interested.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:16 pm

I should have it done next weekend. I am going to radio shack to see if I can find some sort of dial I can use to adjust the amperage. If I cant find one there I should be able to get a dial from a hobby shop for trains. If I remember my Lionel train I had as a kid that is all the controller was.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:49 pm

Be careful not to over heat the alternator or burn out its diodes. The alternator is not designed to maintain maximum amperage for long duration. It is designed to recharge the starting battery and then maintain the stock electrical system.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:05 pm

My alternator has been on the fritz for over a month now anyway. I have been waiting for it to go out before buying another one. I have been looking at something like this Mega Maxx high performance model

http://www.motorcityreman.com/technical-info.html

just for the very reason your talking about. The other thing that I feel is missing from this system is a temp sending unit with gauge to ensure I don't boil the water. Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level, 186.4 degrees at 14,000 ft. Since I never encounter freezing temps here in Southern Cali I am not concerned with any glycol additives but watching the temp and using a controller to lower the amperage in case of excessive heating would be a good idea. I am still skeptical about this unit working but if it does I will also look into building a cooler and pump assembly to help keep the amperage up and temps down.
I have to say that I was looking into this a few years back when I had a F-350 Crew Cab with a 460 but gave up on it thinking that you would not be able to produce enough hydrogen to keep up with the engine. But like I said this guy I work with has been at my company for 20 years and his dad even longer. Actually his father is one of our three full time heavy equipment mechanics and I do trust them so we will see what happens.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:31 pm

The one I made brought my mpg from 13 to 15 but i took it out and cut off the pre-cat and my mpg went to 16-17. So i guess it worked. Not really as much as i wanted but it was an improvement. Mine was small too, I bet the big one above works really well.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:44 pm

HCO4x4 wrote:The one I made brought my mpg from 13 to 15 but i took it out and cut off the pre-cat and my mpg went to 16-17. So i guess it worked. Not really as much as i wanted but it was an improvement. Mine was small too, I bet the big one above works really well.

The first one my friend made above claims increased his millage by 3.6 mpg. That prompted him to make two more combined into one by the riser. He claims he was at 11 mpg driving conservatively. Now with three he is getting 22 with putting his foot in it every now and again and he has been using it for a little over a year now.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:27 pm

HCO4x4 wrote:The one I made brought my mpg from 13 to 15 but i took it out and cut off the pre-cat and my mpg went to 16-17. So i guess it worked. Not really as much as i wanted but it was an improvement. Mine was small too, I bet the big one above works really well.

So have you tried reinstalling it after cat removal to see if the gains are consistent? Inquiring minds still want to know.

HCO4x4 · Post by **HCO4x4** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:22 pm

No I didn't put it back on but I did put a cat back on and my mpg is STILL the same

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:41 am

Funny all this talk about MPG. I have cut my airintake box to HJ specs. Installed K&N filter,moved IT sensor to the front of my filter box top. I removed the Defuser from my Throttle Body. I hit Cruise Control at any thing over 45 mph and stay OFF the brakes and throttle. Thats all the CUSTOMISING I have done and I get a constant 23 MPG, Winter ,Spring ,Summer , Fall with 4 OZ. Marvel Mystery Oil per 12 GLS. gas always every time. I run 5-30 Castrol GTX winter, 10-30 the rest of the time with 1 16oz. bottle of Marvel Oil each 3000 mile change and WIX oil filter. THATS IT !!

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:38 pm

Hey Hammer, Not to disagree with you but any improvements (assuming they are provable and reproducible) are interesting. Given the amount of miles I drive every day even a couple miles per gallon amounts to a fairly large dollar savings on an annual basis. That is my interest. BTW, I get 21-22mpg highway also. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in further improvements if possible.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:20 pm

I currently get a very consistent 23 mpg with no mods to the power train. I drive a minimum of 50 miles a day one way sometimes 80 or 90. At 100 miles a day that is 500 a week x the current $1.95 a gallon a am paying $42.37 a week. If I can get 30 or better mpg that would be a minimum reduction of $10.00 a week= $520.00 a year. The further I drive the more I save. The higher the prices the more I save. During the summer we peaked around $4.85 a gallon, at those prices I would be saving a bare minimum $25.39 a week or over $1320.28 a year. Realistically I average 35000 miles a year so if this all works I will save over all a minimum of 355.07 gallons a year (Add your current price per gallon to see the savings) At my current prices that is at least $692.38 in a year and that is if the price stays at $1.95 a gallon for the entire year

so by doing this I am hoping to have saved at least a very good portion of money for those BFG KO's for this time next year

if not I will have spent around $60.00 or so and a few weekends of my time working on my truck, I have wasted my time and money on far more pathetic attempts than this. Lets see it is 1:30 am maybe she will go to Denny's and a little ..........Three hours later driving to work late (I should have just gone home........... why do I do this........ I will never drink again........Next weekend at 1:30 am Maybe she will go to Denny's.......... Anyway you get the point.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:22 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjfONpsFvyM

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:55 pm

Well I am giving a quick update. Not done yet but this is more involved than I expected. After doing some research I have found out enough to realize that this is not as simple as it first seems. And if you are going to do this right it will take a bit of leg work to acquire the parts, prepare them properly for assembly and figure out a good way to make a clean install. When I am done and IF this works I would suggest a "dry cell" generator vs a "wet cell". I made my 2" ABS purchase and cut and drilled before I finished my leg work or I would be making a dry cell right now. Since I was over anxious I decided to make a dry cell-wet cell hybrid and combine several of both ideas into one. A wet cell has a positive electrode and negative electrode immersed in a electrolyte bath. The amount of electrolyte stays the same and has no circulation. Also the electrodes have no exposure to the outside air thus higher amperages and or more concentrated electrolytes cause over heating issues. But higher amperages or higher electrolyte levels increase hydrogen output! See the problem with this wet system? Anyway since I was committed to the wet cell version I altered the design and am using a reservoir to supply the system with a return back to the same reservoir along with the hydrogen then send the gas (Hydrogen) to a secondary bubbler with distilled water only then to the intake. Also I am making a pulse width modulator (I know it sounds like a flux capacitor) changing the diatomic hydrogen to monoatomic hydrogen which is much more efficient. The hydrogen generator my buddy is using is a direct current version. I am building a modulator with a frequency adjustment, frequency adjustment helps adjust resonance thus allows the hydrogen bubbles to shed off of the stainless more quickly producing more hydrogen. I just have to add a on off switch and amp meter and I will be done. Oh almost forgot I need to make a box to hold the entire assembly. Then I can install the system. Here are a few picks of the generator and assembly. Also as a after thought the parts should be cleaned to removed any body oils and assembled using latex or rubber gloves to avoid contamination. Body oils or any other contamination will accelerate the corrosion process requiring more frequent cleanings of the electrodes. I personally want to make this as user friendly ie maintenance free as possible. I also used 80 grit sand paper on all of the smooth surfaces to help promote bubble shed off.

http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj8/ ... Generator/

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:07 pm

Got it up and running last night. I was fighting a power problem that turned out to be a ground problem..

Then today I had a problem with the fuses blowing. I have a 35 amp circuit board with everything else @ 30 amps ie in line fuse, on off switches, relays etc. Anyway I put a 25 amp fuse in for testing purposes and had an issue with the fuse blowing and had to drive the last 15 miles into work without the system running. (I am driving 52.25 miles one way on this job) I had the 25 amp fuse blow again on the way home around mile 89 so I pulled over and installed a 30 amp fuse and had no problems the rest of the way home. Below is a pic of my fuel gauge and odometer when I pulled into the drive tonight. I started with a full tank this morning. All in all it seems to be working but time will tell how reliable this system is and how beneficial it will be in the long term.

I almost forgot it was 86 degrees today and I noticed that the AC and the Hydro unit pulls about the same according to my in dash voltage meter so I had to go without AC on the way home. So if this turns out to be viable a higher output alternator is not a option but a must. Also I am looking into solar cells, Harbor Freight has some that I think puts out 7.5 amps on a sunny day. I could wire two of those together and wire into the system and have the choice of solar or vehicle power running the system. It seems to run well at about 12 amps but only more time and testing will answer these and other questions I have running around in this empty coffee can I call a head.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj8/ ... drogen.jpg

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:42 am

Our gauges are not accurate enough for figuring MPG. The only way is to record fillups over a given period of the same miles each time. Say, one month, then average those fill ups.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:40 am

Map quest and my GPS confirm distance traveled. I didn't believe in this at all I thought it was crap. The reason I felt this way was because of all of the articles I have read on it from sources like Popular Mechanics. The person I believe to be credible who is using it right now and that is what has inspired me to try it it. I saw the subject line and responded. I asked if anyone her would be interested in the results and I have a yes so I was following through with my commitment.

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:57 am

I don't believe Horsehammerr meant offense by the comment. It was simply being stated that our gauges are not accurate enough to calculate MPG, you need to fill the tank and go by mileage. Gas gauges are only as accurate as looking into a tank and guessing the gallons inside. Each one is calibrated differently and you can change the calibration of yours. There was no offense meant by the previous comments.

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:24 am

I don't like the look of that volt gauge. It really needs to be up at 14 volts. It is not going to live long that way.
Even a higher amperage alternator is not going to last long taxed all the time. They need time to cool down between loads. Their function is to replenish cool and charge when the next load is applied. They are not really built for long periods at maximum output.

Do consider the cost of a bigger alternator and reducing the load so that it will live longer. A constant 30 amp load may be a bit much? Perhaps some way of regulating the draw from the generator can be applied? It could be dialed higher for long highway runs and scaled back for stop and go. RPM regulated would be the ultimate. That way it would better match the alternators performance criteria.

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:56 am

I agree with what HenryJ has just posted. I looked at the picture and viewed it slightly differently. I thought the key was in the on position but with the engine off so it was reading around 12v from the battery. I did not really think of it that way though! Two minds really do view two things differently!

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:18 pm

Look more closely at the pic boys. The lights are on so the engine IS off. In that case if there is a significant amp draw from the generator being on the volt guage reading would not be surprising.

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:36 pm

Seatbelt could be unbuckled with the parking brake set. Low voltage might illuminate the battery light.

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:54 pm

I believe the key is in the off position. The draw is up to 30 amps. That was my main concern./ That is a big load for long term run times. Well at least on top of the stock stuff.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:57 pm

Sorry that was a fast reply before work this morning, looks like HJ toned it down for me

Any way that pic was key on engine NOT running. Here are two pics from tonight after arriving home. First is truck off key on

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj8/ ... ineoff.jpg

The second Hydro system running engine running

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj8/ ... unning.jpg

Hope that clears that up. Anyway what I was saying about the draw on the system was my gauge never read 14 volts it always read just under from the day I had it. When I put my multimeter to it, it actually shows the alternator putting out 14.24 volts while the gauge shows around 13.5. imagine that the gauge isn't accurate.
When I turn on my AC it always drops to 13.1 maybe a 13.2 anyway just barely above thirteen. That is exactly where the hydro system runs at a adjustment of 12 amps. but when both are on it runs around 12 so that is why I left the AC off yesterday and today. I also mentioned that my alternator has been going on the fritz for a couple of months now I have been holding off until it dies. I am hoping to have some solid numbers before it does so I don't spend extra money on a high output alt if it is not needed. The annoying part for me this morning was telling me our gauges are not accurate enough to get data from is like telling me the sky is blue or that my favorite color is blue. But what I can do is make sure my mileage driven is correct on the odometer (It is) and I have been driving to this job on and off since December. What that means is I fill up on Monday morning set my trip and drive to work. I know where the gauge sits normally when I arrive at work the first day and where it sits when I arrive home. I also know that I have to fill up on day two when I arrive back home because according to my gauge I will not make it back home the next day without the light coming on. So to avoid having to stop in the armpit of America (The San Fernando Valley) and running my tank lower than I should, I fill up on day two when I arrive home. As you can see by the pictures I am on day two and I do not need to stop. I do have a smidge below half a tank and I know by experience that I will make it to work and back tomorrow no problem. I would like to say it works but I am not that fast to make a decision on something I didn't believe in to begin with. I am using it this week to work the bugs out. The real mpg testing will start next week with more controlling factors yet to be decided on. Any suggestions on that issue are more than welcome

I almost forgot to mention I took a trip to the parts store last night to pick up a brake light switch so I have around 16 miles or so of city driving added into the mix that I normally don't have and I still have more fuel than normal on day two when driving to USC medical center.

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:34 pm

I wish you the best of luck with it. A fun experiment to play with.
For me it is just too much like a perpetual motion machine. While you appear to be getting free energy, there are hidden costs. Those costs are not only monetary, but also losses in energy.
There is lots of gray area in things like this. The less you fully understand the more likely you are to follow the path.
I have tested lots and found later the damage it did.
Someone had to be the guinea pig. I am glad this one I can just watch

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:55 pm

I see you read the same articles in popular mechanics as I among others

I want it to work and it is kinda fun to play with but the right part of my brain is telling me what kind of an idiot I am while the left is saying just do it and see what happens. But as I understand it Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another. Also in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. A watchspring-driven watch will run until the potential energy in the spring is converted, and not again until energy is reapplied to the spring to rewind it. A car that has run out of gas will not run again until you walk 10 miles to a gas station and refuel the car. Once the potential energy locked in carbohydrates is converted into kinetic energy (energy in use or motion), the organism will get no more until energy is input again. In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat. Entropy is a measure of disorder: cells are NOT disordered and so have low entropy. The flow of energy maintains order and life. Entropy wins when organisms cease to take in energy and die. 2nd law so in short the amount and the simplest way I can say it is the extra energy expended by the engine to turn the alternator will cancel out or even supersede the energy I can possibly expect to retrieve from the hydrogen created in the first place. And that folks is why I find it hard to believe and why I have not tried it until now. Lets see what happens

Oh and BTW Entropy basically is a measure of the unavailability of a system’s energy to do work. I figured I would save some of you the bother of looking it up. My definition may not be perfect but I am sure it is close enough.

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:54 am

Thanks for the Defense Green02, it was just a comment on what we have all become aware of.

04crewvt · Post by **04crewvt** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:27 am

Any long term update on this ? Williamcstonejr are you still out there?

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:30 pm

I averaged an additional 3 miles to gallon more with the generator working at a setting of 12 amps. If I tried increasing the amperage my check engine light would come on and my gas mileage would actually go down. So obviously I would need to mess with the engine management system ie tinker with the airflow, fuel and o2 management. I may try that later but I have been working at Disneyland and driving 1000 miles a week. Because of that I haven't had the time or desire to play with it. Another reason is maintenance is terrible. If I go more than two weeks without cleaning it out I have to increase amperage to complete the circuit due to corrosion. That obviously is not good for the alternator. Not to mention I have everything tucked away behind the grill for a clean look so pulling the grill off every two weeks means wear on the clips and plastic. I want to change to a dry hho system that would make the cleaning process easier but I don't have the time right now. Beside I got sick of sitting in traffic it was taking me 3.5 to 5 hours to get home so I bought a brand new Kawasaki KLR 650 for $4,400.00 and made some saddle boxes and over sized trunk to carry my junk to work. Now I am in the carpool lane and I get home in 1.5 hours. The bottom line is I am getting an additional 3 mpg increase with the current system with a possibility of an increase with more tinkering. That would also mean more money, I would have to get all of my receipts together to give you a down to the penny amount. Off of the top of my head I am at about $150.00 for the hardware, around $50.00 for the electronics for a 3 mpg increase. Then you have to figure in the 200 amp alternator. At this point I don't feel the gain is worth the cost when you consider the maintenance involved. Unless you drive the amount of miles that I do it is just too much of a pain to maintain for the marginal mpg increase. I did take the plugs out at two oil changes and my plugs are EXTREMELY clean! I had a small amount of carbon build up before the generator and now they look like someone took them out and cleaned them. So at this point with my current set up I would not recommend it, but there may be more respectable gains with a dry system and engine management mods. I just have lost the interest at the moment after driving 1000 miles a week and working 40 to 50 hours a week.

border man · Post by **border man** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:10 pm

williamcstonejr wrote:I have been working at Disneyland

Can you get me in free? My niece worked there for 3 years and spoiled us. She would get us in free every time we visited the family in LA.

williamcstonejr · Post by **williamcstonejr** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:24 pm

I wish, I am building a new addition to the Grand Californian Hotel and I cant get in for free. My boss and all of the construction big wigs get those perks but us low life dirt-bags who actually build the stupid thing don't get crap. Actually we get crapped on everyday, we just don't get any of the perks

S-10CREWCAB.NET

Hydrogen Generator

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