Upper Control Arm Bushings, Eating Crow.

JaVeRo · Post by **JaVeRo** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:01 am

During the Christmas/New Years long weekends I replaced the ball joints and upper control arm bushings on my wifes 2001 CC mail truck. 13 months since the last time this was done. I'm still learning and have found something contradictory to a previous post. I also figured out that Brule is a smart man but I doubt that suprises anyone.

I had recommended the Energy Suspension bushings in This thread, Brule was quick to point out that having to install the bushing on the old sleeves was not a good idea.

The Energy Suspension bushing I installed in the lower control arms were still in great shape, they came installed in new sleeves, but the upper bushings allowed the control arm to slide about an 1/8 inch as shown in these two pictures. I have a short movie clip of it if anyone is interested.

They didn't start out with slack in them and I am not sure how long it took for them to start sliding.

Here is a picture of the Energy Suspension bushing I took out on the left. The Moog K6418 problem solver (thermoplastic) in the center, and the Moog K6283 (rubber) on the right. The K6283 should be basically the same as stock. The metal lip of the left bushing was hung on the lip of the center bushing by mistake but you can still see the difference. I installed the K6418 thermoplastic. I will let you know next year how well it held up. Killian96ss had recommended the K6418 in the same thread mentioned above.

I also found that the control arm was bending and flexing while removing/installing the bushings so I cheated a little. I spent some time getting the two flanges parallel and welded a piece of 2" pipe between them to stiffen them up. The next truck I work on, I plan to weld them up before removing the original bushings so that I keep the factory dimensions.

Keep in mind that this truck probably sees a lot more washboard dirt roads than most trucks, about a 150 miles per week. The Energy suspension parts would probably work fine for most people. Now I just hope all this HTML actually works

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:33 am

Interesting! Thanks, for posting.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:38 am

Thank you very much for the time you took to document this!
That is an outstanding post!

Adding that reinforcement looks like a good idea.

So, Let me get this right, your upper a-arm was sliding fore and aft from the slack we see?

JaVeRo · Post by **JaVeRo** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:42 am

HenryJ wrote: So, Let me get this right, your upper a-arm was sliding fore and aft from the slack we see?

I could slide it forward and it stayed there. Then slide it back and it stayed there. No pressure was being applied in either picture.

Only the passenger side did this. I figure it's because of it being on the edge of the road and going off road at every mail box.

Makes it hard to keep a front end aligned.

James

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:44 am

No doubt! That would really mess with the caster.

Any chance it had been narrowed from all this fore aft movement?

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:08 am

My 88 S10 has ES bushings up front that have been on for over 20k miles and so far there is no movement or bushing problems.

I use my 88 S10 for a rural paper route that covers about 80 miles per night on unpaved mountain roads so this is the ultimate test for these bushings and other parts I have installed.

My upper control arms do not move at all which makes me wonder why JaVeRo had problems since both vehicles use the same upper control arms and bushings.

The bushings on my 88 are attracting dirt and dust where the silicone lube was used so I'm starting to wonder if this dirt is going to find a way to get in between the bushing and sleeve.

So far it looks ok, but if I find any wear problems I will let you guys know.

The MOOG bushings made out of higher durometer rubber are starting to look like a better option for off road use where a lot of dirt will be kicked up.

Steve

JaVeRo · Post by **JaVeRo** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:12 am

I have it figured that the bushing wore about 1/16 inch on the polyurethane as shown in the picture with the three bushings. Since the front and back bushings are installed opposite, that allowed 1/16 extra motion forward and 1/16 extra motion backward for a total movement of 1/8 inch.

I considered the possibility that the flanges may have compressed when installing the bushing last winter and contributed to the problem. After getting the four contact areas (the holes the bushings go in) parallel and welding them up, I installed the new bushings. It went into the frame with equal contact on all sides. Any previous bending if any, had been fixed.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:14 pm

Hey JaVeRo! Thanks for the interesting post and info and pics. I too run washboard rural roads here in NW KS. About 600 miles per week delivering mail. My CC has 83+k miles on now and is currently in need of shocks and likely a good inspection of all suspension parts. Always good to learn from others experiences.

JaVeRo · Post by **JaVeRo** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:43 pm

killian96ss wrote:
My upper control arms do not move at all which makes me wonder why JaVeRo had problems since both vehicles use the same upper control arms and bushings.

My wife may run off the road more often than you do. It was the right side.

I looked back in my records and these bushing were on the truck for 28,300 miles. It is entirely possible that the movement started from the flanges being squeezed together in the process of installing them. I have no way of knowing now but if that is what happened, the extra bracing should take care of that.

roadrunner wrote:
My CC has 83+k miles on now and is currently in need of shocks and likely a good inspection of all suspension parts.

The shocks have been a twice a year replacement for the Monroe's. After reading recommendations here, I put bilsteins on it this time.

James

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:05 pm

So, you guys think the MOOG rubber bushings are better than polyurethane bushings?

I always heard polyurethane was the "holy grail" of material to make bushings from.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:07 pm

IMO urethane is great if contained. If in the open where it can split out such as sway-bar links, not so good. More give in the rubber/rubber-synthetic compounds to absorb shock without splitting. Kinda all depends on the hardness or brittle quality of the particular urethane compound involved. JMO.

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:56 am

So, for upper (or lower) control arm bushings they would work better than on sway bars?

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:12 pm

I would think they would be fine in the control arms and possibly in the sway bar mounting brackets.

green02crew · Post by **green02crew** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:57 pm

I feel urethane works well with most applications that the rubber bushings would work in. It is slightly more stiff and less pliable which could be good or bad depending on the application. My urethane sway bar bushings have held up rather well so far I know others can second that. Urethane is more expensive but lasts longer so use your judgment.

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:16 am

I had to replace my endlink bushings, Moog brand, after only 6 months of 5k miles, hiway only. They seem to bind as the endlinks twist in flexing. I think that is what Brule said about my bushings splitting. If that is the case then it would make more since to go with Energysuspension graphite impregnated bushings. Seems to me they could then slip against the lower A-arm bracket instead of gripping and ripping.

JaVeRo · Post by **JaVeRo** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:46 am

Rockrz wrote:So, you guys think the MOOG rubber bushings are better than polyurethane bushings?

I always heard polyurethane was the "holy grail" of material to make bushings from.

I tried the rubber bushings and they didn't last a year on the mail route. If the polyurethane bushing came from the factory installed in new sleeves, I would still be using them. At this point I recommend the Moog thermoplastic K6418. They seem as solid as the polyurethane but come from the factory in the sleeve.

Nov. 2005 installed Moog rubber uppers.
Nov. 2006 installed polyurethane on uppers and lowers. (the lowers had sleeves)
Dec. 2007 installed Moog thermoplastic uppers.
I will let you know more next year.

Keep in mind I and NOT an expert, just letting you know what works for me.

James

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am

JaVeRo wrote:Keep in mind I and NOT an expert, just letting you know what works for me.

I think most of the time real time experience with a product over time means more than the so-called experts.

If these hold up that good for you under extreme usage, I think that's the product I'd rather use. Thanks for the info.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:57 pm

JaVeRo wrote: At this point I recommend the Moog thermoplastic K6418. They seem as solid as the polyurethane but come from the factory in the sleeve.
Nov. 2005 installed Moog rubber uppers.
Nov. 2006 installed polyurethane on uppers and lowers. (the lowers had sleeves)
Dec. 2007 installed Moog thermoplastic uppers.
I will let you know more next year.
James

Wow James!

Now I get to say to you on the bushings what someone said to me on my short brake pad life---WTF you doing with it? Maybe I've just been lucky with mine. At 84K all originals are okay yet.
Can't say the same of the link bushings though. Replaced them twice since got truck at 59K.

Once with urethane once with graphite-rubber. So far so good.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:14 pm

roadrunner wrote:........Wow James! Now I get to say to you on the bushings what someone said to me on my short brake pad life---WTF you doing with it? ..........................

Hey, I resemble that remark

Sounds like more than one member has problems with pet ducks

rlrnr53 · Post by **rlrnr53** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:50 pm

f9k9, you're losing your monolopy on water fowl!

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:01 pm

f9k9 wrote:Sounds like more than one member has problems with pet ducks

Oughts getcha one of those fancy ducks beds that you hear about on the radio all the time.

Rockrz · Post by **Rockrz** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:01 pm

f9k9 wrote:Sounds like more than one member has problems with pet ducks

Oughta getcha one of those fancy ducks beds that you hear about on the radio all the time.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:34 pm

Rockrz wrote:
f9k9 wrote:Sounds like more than one member has problems with pet ducks
Oughta getcha one of those fancy ducks beds that you hear about on the radio all the time.

JaVeRo · Post by **JaVeRo** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:10 am

roadrunner wrote: Wow James! Now I get to say to you on the bushings what someone said to me on my short brake pad life---WTF you doing with it? Maybe I've just been lucky with mine. At 84K all originals are okay yet.
Can't say the same of the link bushings though. Replaced them twice since got truck at 59K. Once with urethane once with graphite-rubber. So far so good.

This is the truck my wife runs on the mail route. 115 miles a day with about half of that being dirt roads. But just thinking about it, it's always the right side that goes first. She may be driving by braille (running one wheel on the edge of the road)

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:02 am

This is very interesting. I have the Energy Suspension bushings in my ZR2 Blazer control arms, and have noticed the same gap on my uppers bushings. I may go ahead and replace them with the Moog thermoplastic units.

I can see that it has room for the upper control arm to shift forward or backward because of the slack in the bushing.....but how would that affect camber?

The problem that I have is that my UCA adjustment bolts will not hold their alignment. The guy that aligns my truck is suspect of my UCA bushings, not the bolts. I tend to think it's either stretched bolts or worn out factory locking nut.....so I am replacing them with new units from GM to find out if my theory is correct.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:09 pm

JaVeRo wrote:This is the truck my wife runs on the mail route. 115 miles a day with about half of that being dirt roads. But just thinking about it, it's always the right side that goes first. She may be driving by braille (running one wheel on the edge of the road)

Don't be too quick to condemn her driving. I too run 120 miles daily on a "route" with 95% dirt/sanded roads. I have found in general regardless what vehicle I am driving the right side suspension and tires generally take more of a beating than the left but conversely the brakes wear out quicker on the left side. All I've ever been able to figure out after 15+ yrs of this is that the right side takes more beating from the rough edges of the road and pulling up to and away from boxes and the left brakes wear quicker because they tend to be on solid/dry surfaces more than the right. Hence they are actually doing more of the braking. This seems to be only modified slightly by ABS braking system but is still noticeable (the brake wear problem only not the suspension).

JaVeRo · Post by **JaVeRo** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:29 am

Miles wrote:I can see that it has room for the upper control arm to shift forward or backward because of the slack in the bushing.....but how would that affect camber?

It's the caster that is affected. By sliding back and forth you are changing foward tilt of the steering axis on one side only. I think this could also affect the toe-in a little but I could be wrong. My wife says I usually am.

Miles wrote:The problem that I have is that my UCA adjustment bolts will not hold their alignment. The guy that aligns my truck is suspect of my UCA bushings, not the bolts. I tend to think it's either stretched bolts or worn out factory locking nut.....so I am replacing them with new units from GM to find out if my theory is correct.

I had the same problem after the first time I replaced the uppers (with moog rubbers) and had it aligned. It wore the ridges off the sleeve endcaps enabling the bushing to slide easier and wearing grooves in the adjustment bolt. The ridges on the endcaps are what keeps the bushing from sliding.

When I put the polyurethane bushings in the next year, I had to buy a new set of Moog rubber bushings just to get the new endcaps to put on the polyurethane bushings. I used new Moog adjustment bolts this time. After having it aligned, I tightened the crap out of it before it started slipping again. I actually did it in the parking lot of the dealer that aligned it.

On this last go-around, I found that I had distorted the threads on the moog bolts. I bought a new set of factory bolts to put back on. They seem to be a harder metal but I'm no machinist. I used the moog thermoplastic that came with new sleeves and endcaps. Again I tightened the crap out of it before driving it. Probably not recommended but hey, it's my truck. So far, no slippage.

If Energy Suspension started installing the upper bushings in new sleeves and endcaps from the factory, I would start using them again in a minute.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:15 pm

Personally I would use a little thread locker if having that much trouble holding bolts tight anywhere on my CC. Or nylon insert nuts if in an applicable location. JMO.

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:50 pm

Wow. I never even considered the ridges on the bushing end caps wearing out, and allowing the bushing assembly to slide. That makes a TON of sense. I have ordered the Moog "problem solver" UCA bushing kit, as well as new UCA bolts & nuts from GM. Hopefully I can get it all installed next weekend, and get it aligned again.

Thank you very much for your research on this! My next step was going to be tack welding the adjustment washers to the the frame after a good alignment.

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:58 am

Why would you tack weld the adjustment washers ? Have I missed something about alignment problems ?

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:29 am

Because I have been unable to keep the UCA from maintaining its' caster setting. Meaning that they have been either coming loose, or just shifting for whatever reason.