Nice Rearend

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:48 am

how would some one who knows what they are talking about describe or front and rearend (besides WOW and CUTE) you know like, Oh hes got a 36spline 9in ford 12 gm thinga m jiggy, and what would i have to buy and place on my truck to have 4, not 3, but 4 tires turning when i was in four low, i have the 3.73 w/G80

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:49 am

i meant 12-bolt gm thingy

AZS10Crew · Post by **AZS10Crew** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:05 pm

The only way to get all four tires pulling at the same time in 4 LO is with solid axle in front with a locker and a locker in the rear (preferably in a stronger axle in the rear too). I'd say the Dana 44's front and rear with 4.10's (depending on tires size) and lockers would get you about anywhere you wanted or needed to go. If you're going to be into serious rock crawling, get a pair of Dana 60's, a bunch of lift, 4.56's or more, dual transfer cases, and 40" tires.

2bunik · Post by **2bunik** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:43 pm

My question is... in 4 lo ., how many tires actually spin ?

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:49 pm

three, unless you don't have the rear locker, then two, the tires with the least traction are usally the two that are spinning

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:23 pm

IF you are like me and just do moderate off road. Take that open diff in the front and put a lock right locker in there but they may not make one for ours. I had a cherokee with 6 in lift 33x12.5 procomp mud terreains and cut the mess out of my fenders. dana 30 front dana 35 rear lock rights in front and rear. With the center axle disconnect on it in two wheel drive the locker didnt hurt anything cause only the inner axle was turning on the passenger side.

That is a good question with ours having ifs do they even make a lock right for our front diff? And if they did do would that make out front end locked even in 2 wd? Cause Im not sure if we have a axle dissconect since we have ifs. Man now I want to go crawl under my truck and see whats up. Cause I have never thought about that.

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:12 am

so what type of rear end and front end axles do we have

AZS10Crew · Post by **AZS10Crew** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:11 pm

Maximous wrote:so what type of rear end and front end axles do we have

Crappy.

I'm not sure of the specific details, but they're weak compared to most other manufacturers.

I wouldn't put a locker in the front of these either, unless you want to blow it up real quick. The u-joints and half-shafts on our front ends aren't designed for the stress a locker would put on it. The main thing that will help with moderate off roading if you don't want to go to SFA is a rear locker. A rear locker will get you through just about anywhere that wouldn't cause significant body damage or require any bigger than 31" tires. If you want to go places that need more ground clearance and bigger tires, nothing will help other than SFA really.

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:27 pm

AZS10Crew wrote:
Maximous wrote:so what type of rear end and front end axles do we have
Crappy. ...

Axles are usually refered to by the make/model (Dana 44, Dana 60) , make/ number of cover bolts (GM 12 bolt, GM 10 bolt) , make/ring gear size (Ford 9", GM 8.5") and type of suspension (IFS , trailing arm, solid axle)

We have a GM 7.25" (7 1/4") IFS (Independent Front Suspension) up front and a 7.625" (7 5/8") 10 bolt rear axle with disc brakes.

AZS10Crew · Post by **AZS10Crew** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:35 pm

HenryJ wrote:
AZS10Crew wrote:
Maximous wrote:so what type of rear end and front end axles do we have
Crappy. ...
Axles are usually refered to by the make/model (Dana 44, Dana 60) , make/ number of cover bolts (GM 12 bolt, GM 10 bolt) , make/ring gear size (Ford 9", GM 8.5") and type of suspension (IFS , trailing arm, solid axle)

We have a GM 7.25" (7 1/4") IFS (Independent Front Suspension) up front and a 7.625" (7 5/8") 10 bolt rear axle with disc brakes.

Like I said...crappy.

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:55 pm

AZS10Crew wrote:Like I said...crappy.

I really can't argue with that

I will say that bigger is not always better.

The Ford 9" axle is stronger than the GM 12 bolt, however the GM 12 bolt takes less horsepower to run. All things being equal the GM rear will go faster.

I don't really know if this applies to our front differential since it is only engaged during 4x4 operation, but maybe it does use less horsepower?

I will agree that the front is a weak point by design. The banjo housing is not the best way to go. It was probably built this small to keep the ride height low for those soccer grandma's that there were built for.

I have wheeled my old S-10 plenty and the new one nearly as hard.

My terrain may be much more forgiving than some, and I don't "ride the razors edge" any more either. So for me this front IFS is working.

Now , someday, when I go to that Ram Jet engine, the stock axles will not handle that. It will then be time for the 9" Ford/Porsche front IFS

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:19 pm

so on the front diff...does the front end engage and disengage inside the transfer case or do we have some kind of axle disconnect somewhere else in the front drive line?

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:25 pm

i have a semi connected question, now if i do a sfa conversion, does that automatically lift my truck, or is that a little bonus that fabtech through in there, even though im not looking at fabtech to do the conversion, but if thats so then i dont even need to worry about the SL, i was told that for money sake it would probably be better if i went with the dana 30, because the 44 would have to be cut down to fit, anybody know a way around this, also i was told if i wanna go with large tires i should probably go with a 60 front end, will that even work, 30 or 44 in the back and a 60 up front, im considering going with a three link rear, i am discussing it with the biulder via email, if anybody wants to stay posted on topic just tell me, id be glad to pass on any info i could

Post by **HenryJ** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:22 am

malkavian wrote:so on the front diff...does the front end engage and disengage inside the transfer case or do we have some kind of axle disconnect somewhere else in the front drive line?

Both.
The "disconnect" for the front axle is on the right side. That is what the vacuum control under your battery operates.

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:07 am

Both.
The "disconnect" for the front axle is on the right side. That is what the vacuum control under your battery operates.

thanks.

adrenalnjunky · Post by **adrenalnjunky** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:06 pm

Honestly -- the cheaper route on SFA appears to be The Dana 30's that are under a lot of Jeeps, and older broncos I think??.

http://www.s10extremist.org has tons of SFA info out there.

If seriously offroading over varied terrain - probably move up to dana 44's with lockers. The axles may be wider, but heck when offroading a few inch wider stance isn't a bad thing. Plus you're going to have to build in 4-8 inches of lift with the SFA anyhow. If you are really worried about the tires tucking inside the fenders so you don't have to cut the body, then you're probably not really offroading hard enough for a 44 or 60 setup. Personally I think a 60 in the front with a 30 in the rear is a waste of money, cause you have severely different limits to those pieces of equipment. You can't offroad really hard with the front end of your truck, and go easy on the rear end. If it's gonna blow up a SFA 30 in the front, it's just as likely to blow that axle in the rear too. Not to mention you'll have to run a T-case that is rated for the 60 anyhow.

One other thing to consider - go to Paul (Quickbiker)'s website and look through his galleries and trail rides and such. He's done all of that with a mostly stock IFS and 5 inch lift on 31's (and little regard for putting some dents and scratches in the rig). If you don't plan on doing half the stuff with your truck that Paul is doing with his - then there's no real reason to go SFA.

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:58 pm

Just looked at the pictures on his web site. They could be decieving some of the terrain may be worse than it looks in the pics. But I can do that kind of stuff now in my stock zr5. Im going to try to take some pics of the type of stuff I want to be able to do. Im not into rock crawling so Im not worried about all that. But if the front diff cant handle at least a lock right locker then I may be looking at doing a solid axle swap. hmmmmm

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:28 am

Just talked to a tech guy at randys ring and pinion. For moderate to difficult off road use he says the front would hold up fine with a lock rite locker. IM doing some more reserch on it. I figure Ill do a gear change and lock rite in the front and detroit locker in the rear. Im only doing the gear change because I have the 3.43 ratio

These guys helped me with my part for my cherokee a cpl of years ago and I never had a problem with her and I put her through alot worse than I will the crew cab.

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:48 pm

go to Paul (Quickbiker)'s website and look through his galleries and trail rides and such. He's done all of that with a mostly stock IFS and 5 inch lift on 31's (and little regard for putting some dents and scratches in the rig). If you don't plan on doing half the stuff with your truck that Paul is doing with his - then there's no real reason to go SFA.

im gonna say the same as malkavian, i do stuff that looks just as hard and im all stock, my camera messed up and erased all of my truck pics from when we were riding, ill talk to my brother and see if he still has any on his comp but i do some pretty hardcore stuff, thats why my trucks tow hooks are bent, from getting snatched out of places that little sonoma shouldnt have been, we'll put it this way, i go out with my bro in his jeep with i think 2in lift and a loose nut behind the steering wheel, our friend who drives a older toy with like 5or6in lift and i think 33's, they were going around stuff i was climbing and going through, see i have no choice, if i want to keep going i have to go through the paths and holes, they are high enough to just go around thru the tall grass, brush and hidden stumps and stuff, but i would rather go thru it anyways,

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:15 am

ok i just did a little "investigative" work, i am defin not going SFA, i started thinking about it, ok, i can get my stock sonoma in place where bigger boys hide from, the fact that i was in the middle of our convoy when we rode proves that, i was in the middle so that if the front got stuck i could get him out and if the last guy got stuck i could pull him through, every time i get stuck its because i bottom out, the only time i got stuck that was lack of traction was i really big puddle, i crawled into this small hole, next thing i know, no traction and mud water coming in the drivers door, there isnt to many things that would make it through that whole so im not worried about that, but every other time was because of being short, so i the way i see it, if i can get taller, maybe get some better gears, bigger tires, it will be pretty hard to stop, wait a second, thats what you were trying to tell me wasn't it

hey one more guestion, are rear locker, are they any good, or should i replace it before i go depending on it

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:02 am

I havent had a problem with my rear locker at all so far. But after I get my lift and tires Im going to regear so IM going with a detroit locker in the rear and a lock right in the front. I figure Im going to have the front diff out to install the lift so why not do the regear at that time also.

As far as sfa goes the main reason people do that on a ifs truck is cause ifs is know to be weaker then a sfa. But I was just looking at a tracker or a amigo or something like that in one of my mags and this guy was running ifs with calmini axles and running 5. something gears and running 37 inch tires. He broke a axle on a rock garden so his was holding up great. He even has videos of him jumping the thing. So Im staying with the ifs

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:58 am

malkavian wrote:... I was just looking at a tracker or a amigo or something like that in one of my mags and this guy was running ifs with calmini axles and running 5. something gears and running 37 inch tires. He broke a axle on a rock garden so his was holding up great. He even has videos of him jumping the thing. So Im staying with the ifs

I would be happy if we had the Isuzu Amigo's IFS. It is beefier than our front.

Keep in mind that the little four cylinder in those needed the lower gearing, they came with 31" tires and 4.88 gears (My neighbor has one)

I would REALLY like to talk you out of the lockright in the front, as they are extremely harsh. and the front just will not handle that kind of abuse.

I ran one in my old truck - Thunder Chevy. It hammered the clutch dampening springs to the point that they fell out and locked up.
While it was awesome offroad, it did not handle the street duty as nicely.

Even if you decide that it is not going to do as much harm to your drivetrain, just the way it can jump when turning would scare the heck out of me if it was in the front axle.

You might want to see what another front IFS would cost, and have it as a back-up. Or figure that into the equasion. A SFA may be more cost effective for you if you insist on a locking front diff.

I just hate for you to invest in the expense of an IFS lift, gearing, lockers. Then bust a front diff and have to replace, when it could have been all done with a SFA lift.

Do not think that I am against the IFS, I love it and would not go SFA.
I just worry about the strength issue. Please bear in mind that I can go overboard, and build a tank when I just need a puddle jumper

Post by **Walt** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:33 am

Got a question, if our front end is open, then why is my truck so hard to steer in 4Hi and 4Lo? I thought that the front diff locks when you put it in 4wd. I can be on concrete and try to turn (in either direction) and it's almost impossible. Could someone clarifiy this for me?

Thanks!

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:58 am

wamason wrote:Got a question, if our front end is open, then why is my truck so hard to steer in 4Hi and 4Lo? I thought that the front diff locks when you put it in 4wd. I can be on concrete and try to turn (in either direction) and it's almost impossible. Could someone clarifiy this for me?

You know that "bind" that occurs when you turn a corner with a locked rear axle? One wheel is turning faster than the other.

Well the same thing is happening , except it is the transfercase that does not have a way to let the front and rear shafts turn at different speeds. It is like having a spool instead of an open carrier. One wheel in front and one or more wheels in the rear are turning at different speeds and it binds up..

Our transfercase does not have anyway to have the front shaft turn at a different speed than the rear.

Now this is where the "Auto transfercase" comes in it uses a fluid coupled clutch. so basically it is just like having a limited slip differential in the transfercase, instead of a spool

This way it can be driven on pavement with out the bind, since it does have a way to slip.

Hope that explained it in plain enough examples to be clear.

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:22 pm

HenryJ... Is out front really that weak. I was thinking that we had a center axle disconnect that would basically take the locker out of the eqation while in 2 wheel mode.

On my cherokee since it had the center axle disconnect the diff would be turning but the right outer axle would not be engaged so that allowed no binding between the front lft and right wheels. But off road when I engaged the center axle disconnect then I had both front wheels pulling.

Man I hate to hear that out IFS is that weak.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:44 am

malkavian wrote:HenryJ... Is out front really that weak. I was thinking that we had a center axle disconnect that would basically take the locker out of the eqation while in 2 wheel mode.

The right axle is disconnected during 2wd operation.
Sooner or later you are going to have to make a turn in 4x4 though

On my cherokee since it had the center axle disconnect the diff would be turning but the right outer axle would not be engaged so that allowed no binding between the front lft and right wheels. But off road when I engaged the center axle disconnect then I had both front wheels pulling.

Man I hate to hear that out IFS is that weak.

I'm not saying that it can't be done. The parts do exist.

If you are very careful you might even make it a year or so

It is just such a pain to install/remove them in the front IFS that I wouldn't look forward to doing the repairs. If I go into that front diff , I only want to do it once in my lifetime. Disassembling that front is not my idea of a good time. Installing the Lock-right in the front, I know it will come apart again , either by itself on a mountian, or when you find it undriveable.

Have you ever owned a vehicle with a PowerTrax Lock-right in it for long term?

I still have one for the 7.5" GM 10 bolt, boxed with all the instructions.

Now if we were talking about a Detroit, or limited slip diff for the front, I'd be all for it. I had a limited slip in the front of my old 3/4 ton Chevy. You definately did not want it in 4x4 on solid surfaces, but it was awesome offroad

It is just the Lockright's harshness and our tiny IFS that worry me.

Feel free to prove me wrong though

If you really want to do it, then go for it! You have all the information and can decide if this is what you want to do.

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:57 am

so am i just not paying attention or what, how can i make my truck more gripping when i need it, i dont have to worry abot 4wd on pavement, i only use 4wd when i need it, i mud ride in 2wd till i start to slip then into four, i very rarely ever use 4lo, but i would like it to grip a little more when i do use it, what about 4hi, would they all lock also

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:40 am

Maximous wrote:...how can i make my truck more gripping when i need it... i very rarely ever use 4lo, but i would like it to grip a little more when i do use it, ...

Keep in mind that four wheel drive usually means "stuck worse".

If you REALLY need more than three wheels pulling, then you need to upgrade.

The cheapest way to have all four wheels driving would be SFA. Upgrade the rear while you're at it.

A better option might be to sell the crewcab for a Jeep? or Toyota?

I am not being scarcastic! If you sold the crew and took the money you were going to spent on lockers and SFA, you would be really close to the price of a vehicle that comes with solid axles , and has the selectable lockers available. Not to mention that you would now have fenderwells that would handle more than a 31" tire

I hate to say it , but if you are really "hardcore" there are many better choices for a rig to throw money at.

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:32 pm

arrrgggghhhhhh

. HeneryJ dont think Im getting all up tight about it .

I did some off roading today. Actually had a steep incline with some 1 ft steps in it. I tryed in 2 hi no luck. went to 4lo and she went right up it. Just had to angle up on the steps. I really like the cc and theres not that many out there fixed up. I might look at doing a sfa swap. Have to do some thinking on this. But thanks for pointing this stuff out. I just didnt think the front end was that weak.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:55 pm

malkavian wrote:arrrgggghhhhhh ... I just didnt think the front end was that weak.

Well it is possible that I am blowing things out of proportion

I do tend to err to the safe side.

I can not say from personal experience that the Lockright in the front would blow it apart. I am just looking at it from my experiences with a Lockright in the rear.

Also I have never trashed the front on one of the S-series, and I have put them in some pretty good situations.

I think the front will hold up just fine , and wheel with the best of them without a front locker.

A driver with experience, can really make any rig shine

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:22 am

heres a email I sent to richmond gear about the lock right in the front. Just thought I would shoot them a email to see what they said.

there response

George, we have not heard of any problems with the lock-right in this application. As long as everything is installed properly you should not have any prblems with the locker. We do however recommend that these lockers only be installed in a front axle when the axle has locking hubs or a front axle dissconnect.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kip Lindsay <cbr600rr@charter.net>
To: techsupport@richmondgear.com <techsupport@richmondgear.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:29 AM
Subject: Looking at buying a power trax or lock right but have question about my truck.

Sirs
I have a 03 gmc sonoma quad cab 4x4. It has a 7 5/8 rear diff 10 bolt and a 7 1/4 IFS up front. It has the g-80 locker in the rear. It seems this is a eaton centrifical locker. My main question is about the front IFS diff. Everyone I have talked to says that the IFS diffrential in my truck will not hold up with a lock right or power trax in it. That it will just come apart. I have seen a lock right for my IFS diffrential and thought I would ask the guys that designed it if I would have any problems with my front diffrential holding up with a lock right.Thanks for your time.
George Lindsay

adrenalnjunky · Post by **adrenalnjunky** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:07 pm

That doesn't seem right to me.

You tell them what you drive, and what you are wanting to do.

They tell you "Sure it'll work, buy our product!!!" "Of course our product is only designed to work under these circumstances,and we're not going to research your vehicle to see if those circumstances are present in the vehicle you mentioned. But we're sure it'll work nontheless! Buy our product!!""

Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm not sure what they mean about the locking front hubs, and front axle disconnect. I was under the impression that all of our front end activation was done in the axle, not at the hubs, and I'm pretty sure that we don't have a front axle disconnect. I could be wrong -- I probably am -- but if I'm right, you just got a blanket response to make you feel good about buying a product.

malkavian · Post by **malkavian** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:51 pm

yeah we have a front axle dissconnect its on the right side of the front diff. when you push the 4 hi or 4 lo button it engages the transfer case and the front axle dissconnect. I think Ill just leave her stock and turn my rail bugy into a 4 wheel drive buggy with a front mount small block. I have one fresh built 350 and a 400 small block I just got off a guy that need to be rebuilt. Ill even keep the buggy street legal..