Welder question...

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:57 pm

Ok, after getting a really bad case of sticker shock looking at SFA conversions, I've decided to do what most S-10 owners have done for their SFA's and just do it myself. The questions here are for anyone who has a welder. What kind do you have and where is a good place to get one and how much? For what Fabritech wants for an SFA kit (not to mention what Dynatrac wants for a couple of Dana 44 axles), I figure I can buy a decent welder, plasma cutter and a good bench grinder and maybe even replace my worn out air compressor and just make my own stuff and have money left over for the beer!

Oh, and Warnoffroad (if you're still out there), did your SFA conversion include those Dana axles or did you have to supply them?

Justin · Post by **Justin** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:43 pm

Gary,

A small Miller mig or tig (whichever you prefer) would be best but make sure its a 240 volt. I've found 120 volt welders to be useless. If you're looking into buying a plasma tortch, a welder, anda bench grinder, buy a 4" hand grinder too with multiple attachments..those are the most helpful when sanding.

I don't know what you will spend but the Miller tig welder i have wass a little under $900. The plasma tortch i got as a gift but it needed a compressor....

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:06 pm

I actually have a 4 1/2" angle grinder. After pricing plasma cutters, I think I can buy a lot of cut-off wheels for it. I never thought about the difference between TIG and MIG welders. In fact I have to admit I really don't know much about welding but I guess I'm going to have to learn. TIG sounds good from what I've read so far because I can also use it for sheet metal (or can I?) but can it handle 1/4" steel? I don't think any of the brackets I will have to make will be that thick but I want the reserve to be safe.

Bad_Ass_S10 · Post by **Bad_Ass_S10** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:38 pm

well I have a miller welder that cost just under 1300 but you need to make sure that the heat setting will be hot enough to burn into the frame, my setting goes up to # 6 and is a wire fed mig, I have never messed with tig welding but its one of the hardest types to master, a basic mig is probably the safest and best to use since anyone can practice and learn from a mig, there is alot of stuff that was made for my SFA but some stuff was worth the price, start checking on axles, I used dana 44's from jeeps that are sprung not coil, and is alot cheaper to find one in a junk yard and rebuild it than to buy on prebuilt, I just bought new gears for mine, I ave 4.56 now but going to 4.88's cause I am planning on going bigger this summer so I just spent 380 on a locker and new gears and thats at wholesale cost which is not bad since most lockers run about 400 and up by them selves, and the ring and pinion is about 150 and up

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:22 am

Thanks for the responses guys! Yeah, I think MIG is going to be the way I'm going. I had these ideas that I was going to buy ready made axles and a lift kit but the front axle alone was $4800 and the SFA kit was $2300. That should be me a really nice welder, some nice shop tools and a lot of steel to fab up something. Now I know why all the folks on S-10 Extremist build their own lift kits! I think I found a local 3/4 4x4 Chevy I might just get my axles from. Somehow I think a full floater 14 bolt beats a Dana 44 anyway.

AZS10Crew · Post by **AZS10Crew** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:20 am

Just make sure the pumpkin is on the driver side if you're going with a front axle from that truck. I'm not sure which side it's on for that year, but I'm pretty sure the K5's had them on the passenger side which won't work for an S-10 application.

Bad_Ass_S10 · Post by **Bad_Ass_S10** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:00 pm

the only thing with using 1/2 or 2/4 ton stuff is that you will have to find a specialist to narrow the 14 bolt, I will say that it will be alot stonger but by using dana 44 from a jeep you dont have to narrow or widen them,
alot of guys are taking toyota trucks and running 44's and never have any problems with the toyota running gear and I think the dana parts are stonger than toyota, thats why I used dana 44 stuff, I feel tht building a truck right the first time is great but remember the bigger stuff you use the more weight it is,
think about our lil ole 190 hp v-6

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:10 pm

Bad_Ass_S10 wrote:the only thing with using 1/2 or 2/4 ton stuff is that you will have to find a specialist to narrow the 14 bolt, I will say that it will be alot stonger but by using dana 44 from a jeep you dont have to narrow or widen them,
alot of guys are taking toyota trucks and running 44's and never have any problems with the toyota running gear and I think the dana parts are stonger than toyota, thats why I used dana 44 stuff, I feel tht building a truck right the first time is great but remember the bigger stuff you use the more weight it is,
think about our lil ole 190 hp v-6

There are a bunch of S-10's on s-10extremist.org that are running full width axles with bushwacker flares and the tires really don't stick out all that bad. Plus they get the added benefit of a much wider track which makes them more stable with all the lift they are running. Legality is the only issue I'm really worried about.

Axle strength is a concern because my plans include a 350 LT1 V8 and at least 35" tires. There was some question about how well Dana 44's would survive. Heck, if it weren't for wanting to retain the airconditioning, I know where I can get a 454 big block which wouldn't make a shread of sense but it sure would look cool sitting in there!

Oh, I bought a mig welder today along with a bench grinder, vise and even a new air compressor. Man, It feels like Christmas and I still haven't spent as much as that SFA kit costs!

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:41 pm

which one?

i bought the millermatic 175 from cyberweld for 700 bucks...

oh and whatch the classified section of priate4x4.com and you will find all sorts of axels lockers and springs

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:58 pm

I got a Hobart 175 for $569. The plasma cutter is next on the list. There's always the slim chance I may never finish the Blazer but I'm going to have one heck of a well equipped shop before I'm done. I was looking at a drill press today too. The wife basically gave me the entire tax refund to play with and it's burnin' a heck of a hole in my pocket!

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:16 am

why are you sfa ing your s-10 when you have the k-5????????????

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:47 am

a2b wrote:why are you sfa ing your s-10 when you have the k-5????????????

I don't have a K5. This is that '87 S-10 Blazer I bought last year. I'm turning it into a trail rig instead of bashing my CrewCab to death. There were too many times I went 4 wheeling last year where I found myself sitting on the sidelines watching everyone else go through the "fun stuff" and then I would find the easy way around so as not to scratch my CC. No more!

smokinjoe · Post by **smokinjoe** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:43 am

HEAR HEAR!!!!!

sorry just had to throw that in there.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:58 am

Yeah, I figure the thing is such a pile of rust as it is that I don't have to worry about body damage on the trails too much. I stripped it down to the frame to make sure the frame isn't rusted out anywhere. So far so good.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:26 pm

oooohhhhh. i thought you had a k-5....cool. what front axel are you going with. if you stay with 33's you can pick up a front 10 bolt and rear 12bolt for NOTHING! off the k-5colorado board or pirate. you can probably getem locked while you are at it

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:15 pm

Well, I was going to get a couple of brand new Dana 44's from Dynatrac. I had this crazy idea that they only cost about $1000-1500 each. Ha! Silly me! The front one alone was $4800!. Plan B (or is it C now). Now I'm hunting for the front and rear out of a full size, prefereably an F250 or F350 Ford because the front diff is on the drivers side versus most full size GM's where it's on the passenger side (need different t-case). Most early F250's used a Dana 60 front and a 60 or 70 rear. Pretty unbreakable stuff and they are dirt cheap in the junk yards. The only problem with full sized diffs is the width. Even with Bushwacker cut-out flares a set of 36's would stick out an additional 3-4" or so on each side. Great for stability but the local cops might not like it. There are several S-10's I've seen like this and they really didn't look bad.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:47 pm

ya, you can pic up a front used rebuilt 60 for 1500 bucks down at the local rear ends shop here in town.

Bad_Ass_S10 · Post by **Bad_Ass_S10** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:50 am

if looking for a ford front end, just make sure its from an older one ( pre 94 - I think ) I almost picked one up from a 98 that rolled over and when I went to look at it I noticed that it was electonic/vacuum shifted meaning that I was going to need the electonic shift ( dash buttons ) and computer, it had lock out hubs but the inner pumpin would not shift with out the computer,
so just be careful and do your research

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 4:31 am

Yeah, everyone I've talked to so far said to look for pre-80's vintage axles. Research is proving to be a key component in this whole mess. I'll probably take a year just to figure it all out and gather the needed parts. Meanwhile, my beloved VW Bus sits outside in the rain.

Oh well, that's part of the price I guess. (to my wife: Hey honey? I need a bigger garage!)

Warnoffroad · Post by **Warnoffroad** » Tue May 04, 2004 6:09 pm

GaryH wrote:Ok, after getting a really bad case of sticker shock looking at SFA conversions, I've decided to do what most S-10 owners have done for their SFA's and just do it myself. The questions here are for anyone who has a welder. What kind do you have and where is a good place to get one and how much? For what Fabritech wants for an SFA kit (not to mention what Dynatrac wants for a couple of Dana 44 axles), I figure I can buy a decent welder, plasma cutter and a good bench grinder and maybe even replace my worn out air compressor and just make my own stuff and have money left over for the beer!

Oh, and Warnoffroad (if you're still out there), did your SFA conversion include those Dana axles or did you have to supply them?

I had to supply the axles. I got a millermatic 210, a miller 135 and a miller 375 plasma cutter. The 210 is AWSOME you can cut into anything with a double pass, and the 375 is too much of a pain unless u can figure out a way to see what your doing, id stick to a angle grinder. As far as a plasma cutter goes its not worth the money. Id say get a 175 millermatic like hobies got (anything that will weld over or atleast 3/16 stuff) and a good angle grinder. If I was you I would find an early F250 rolling chassie (frame and axles), cut the hangers and shackles off that and weld them straight onto the front of your truck. Then look for a shop thatll build you a drag link, and some drive shafts and you good to go.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue May 04, 2004 7:31 pm

I bought a Hobart 175 which is basically a Miller 175. I think they are both made by the same company. Many of the replacement parts are the same. I paid $569 for it and the shipping was free. Now I have to get my garage wired for 230 volts.

I was trying to find 3/4 or 1 ton axles and spent the last 3 days calling around and going to several junkyards looking. Most of the few I found wouldn't work or were already missing so many parts I didn't want to mess with them. Well, today I got lucky. I found a '78 Bronco with complete 9" rear and Dana 44 front. $500 for both. It was what I originally planned before I came up the the 1 ton idea. I'm trying to decide if I should try to use the radius arm setup with coils from the Bronco or do leaf springs. Either way I have a lot of fabricating to do. Now I have to get past the idea of stuffing Ford parts in my Chevy. Oh well.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Wed May 05, 2004 3:42 am

Warnoffroad wrote: I got a millermatic 210, a miller 135 and a miller 375 plasma cutter. The 210 is AWSOME you can cut into anything with a double pass, and the 375 is too much of a pain.

i'd say you are on crack now...i would give anything for a plasma cutter. i just spent 3 hours with a blow torch sunday cuttingo on my new frame. the plasma cutter would have been soooo much better. also, why did you get 2 welders???????????????????

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed May 05, 2004 4:40 am

a2b wrote:
Warnoffroad wrote: I got a millermatic 210, a miller 135 and a miller 375 plasma cutter. The 210 is AWSOME you can cut into anything with a double pass, and the 375 is too much of a pain.
i'd say you are on crack now...i would give anything for a plasma cutter. i just spent 3 hours with a blow torch sunday cuttingo on my new frame. the plasma cutter would have been soooo much better. also, why did you get 2 welders???????????????????

Mine should be arriving any day now. After seeing a demonstration by a friend of mine, out came the credit card. I can't imagine trying to cut out pieces of 1/4" steel for spring brackets with an angle grinder! That $1200 price tag was a pain though!

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Thu May 06, 2004 3:14 am

sweeet. which plasma did you get!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you are fabing stuff...like cross members and brackets and hangers and shackles and stuff....the plasma cutter is the best thing ever

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu May 06, 2004 3:57 am

I got a Hobart "AirForce" 400. It was the middle ground on power and should be able to cut through 1/4" steel easily. It should be able to cut through heavier stuff too but I can't remember all the specs on it.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:58 am

you will enjoy it big time if you are fabbing stuff to save money instead of buying stuff brand new. and when you toss the body on that thing and tube it out and build your own truggy.....the plasma cutter will REALLY be useful

border man · Post by **border man** » Fri May 07, 2004 9:05 am

too bad you guys are nowhere near Casa Grande, AZ. On the TO reservation where I patrol, there are hundreds of abandoned 4X4 trucks just rotting out there. Many are old Fords with all axles intact including an old Jeep Wagoneer. They are all load vehicles(smuggling) that get stuck or break down and just get abandoned. Due to remoteness and hard accessibility, they just get left out there. Abandoned vehicle titles in AZ are $250 for vehicles on Federal Land if anyone is interested. Otherwise just visit any tribal distirct office to get a visitor's permit and go parts hunting.

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Fri May 07, 2004 11:24 am

jalvar3667 wrote:too bad you guys are nowhere near Casa Grande, AZ. On the TO reservation where I patrol, there are hundreds of abandoned 4X4 trucks just rotting out there. Many are old Fords with all axles intact including an old Jeep Wagoneer. They are all load vehicles(smuggling) that get stuck or break down and just get abandoned. Due to remoteness and hard accessibility, they just get left out there. Abandoned vehicle titles in AZ are $250 for vehicles on Federal Land if anyone is interested. Otherwise just visit any tribal distirct office to get a visitor's permit and go parts hunting.

really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

can you just get the whole vehicle for nothing?????????????

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:42 pm

I just finished reading an article in 4Wheel & Off-Road that mentioned those abandoned trucks. Too bad the area isn't local to me. I would have loved to get at those axles from the Wagoneer. Would have been a somewhat better fit than what I got. Finding good 4x4 stuff in junkyards around the D.C. area is not easy and if they suspect that what you want might be "special" (like my high pinion Dana 44 front /Ford 9" rear axles) the price goes through the roof because they figure that if you live in this area, you can afford it. In fact the junkyard I got mine from must have thought I wanted the axles out of a Bronco II that was nearby. The guy that pulled the parts didn't know the difference. When the owner found out what I really got, he was p***ed but at that point, they were paid for and loaded in the back of my truck and I had a receipt. Too late, sucker!

jarhead · Post by **jarhead** » Fri May 07, 2004 1:49 pm

Hey Hobie lets head out to az next weekend and get some parts

I could definatly use some of those waggy parts and I know you could use the ford parts and even some of the waggy parts.

border man · Post by **border man** » Fri May 07, 2004 6:32 pm

a2b wrote:can you just get the whole vehicle for nothing?????????????

Just tell them you are visiting to enjoy the beauty of the land, and visit all the Budweiser shrines throughout the res. In my everyday duties I have encountered many people who raise my suspiscion, but only end up being scavengers. Can't do anything to them but maybe tell them where the better vehicles are. There's a 2002 2-door blazer out here that I will get a nice looking roof rack from. It's sitting next to a 2004 isuzu trooper, although both are stolen vehicles.

Warnoffroad · Post by **Warnoffroad** » Fri May 07, 2004 7:49 pm

a2b wrote:
Warnoffroad wrote: I got a millermatic 210, a miller 135 and a miller 375 plasma cutter. The 210 is AWSOME you can cut into anything with a double pass, and the 375 is too much of a pain.
i'd say you are on crack now...i would give anything for a plasma cutter. i just spent 3 hours with a blow torch sunday cuttingo on my new frame. the plasma cutter would have been soooo much better. also, why did you get 2 welders???????????????????

the plasma cutter just takes too much time to get us to I think. I did my traction bar brakets with it and then spent another 2 hours with the bench grinder tryin to make them look good. At first I got the 135, then I just wanted somethin that I could run a spool gun off of and that could burn into thicker stuff.

jarhead · Post by **jarhead** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:56 pm

jalvar3667 wrote:
a2b wrote:can you just get the whole vehicle for nothing?????????????

Just tell them you are visiting to enjoy the beauty of the land, and visit all the Budweiser shrines throughout the res. In my everyday duties I have encountered many people who raise my suspiscion, but only end up being scavengers. Can't do anything to them but maybe tell them where the better vehicles are. There's a 2002 2-door blazer out here that I will get a nice looking roof rack from. It's sitting next to a 2004 isuzu trooper, although both are stolen vehicles.

Since they are stolen does that mean they are offlimmits what does the insurance company do about them. do they just write them off because they are to hard to get to or what. Are they accesable with a regular 4 wheel drive like say my crew and a trailer or they in a really bad spot?????????

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:05 pm

jarhead wrote: Are they accesable with a regular 4 wheel drive like say my crew and a trailer or they in a really bad spot?????????

yes...inquiring minds who have tow trucks and trailers want to know.......

border man · Post by **border man** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:49 am

Well I've seen them, so that must mean they are accessible. The smuggling roads are in pretty bad shape, but we negotiate them daily in Tahoes, Jeeps and 3/4 ton Hemis not to mention the smugglers who negotiate them in two wheel drive vans, trucks, and even sedans. As far as the stolen vehicles go, I assume they just get wrote off by the insurance companies because some have been there for months.

jarhead · Post by **jarhead** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:52 am

jalvar3667 wrote:Well I've seen them, so that must mean they are accessible. The smuggling roads are in pretty bad shape, but we negotiate them daily in Tahoes, Jeeps and 3/4 ton Hemis not to mention the smugglers who negotiate them in two wheel drive vans, trucks, and even sedans. As far as the stolen vehicles go, I assume they just get wrote off by the insurance companies because some have been there for months.

So parts wise they are fair game??????

if that blazer has a 4.3 in it that would go great in my Toyota

a2b · Post by **a2b** » Tue May 11, 2004 2:48 pm

yes, would we get in trouble if we go get them as whole or would we just have to scavenge

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue May 11, 2004 2:53 pm

a2b wrote:yes, would we get in trouble if we go get them as whole or would we just have to scavenge

Well, maybe if we tell them we are cleaning up the environment and picking up all the "trash". Maybe that would work? Sounds good anyway!

jarhead · Post by **jarhead** » Tue May 11, 2004 3:22 pm

I think I might have to drive out there this weekend

border man · Post by **border man** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:21 am

a2b wrote:yes, would we get in trouble if we go get them as whole or would we just have to scavenge

As far as the tribal police go, they are spread pretty thin, so you can get awya with scavenging, but we might harrass you, check you out make sure you are not smuggling people or drugs.

jarhead · Post by **jarhead** » Thu May 13, 2004 9:53 am

What is required and how long does it take to get an abandond vehicle title

2bunik · Post by **2bunik** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:48 pm

I say get magnetic signs that say " JARHEADS SAVING THE EARTH plant a tree"slap it on the side of the crew with a trailer and tow the whole thing back home.. I say take a tarp and alot of rope.. " Ah yes officer this truck was in the mud" " ah no it is not mine" " I am trying to preserve the land and remove the rubbish sick people leave behind" " ok officer you have a nice day" " oh and plant a tree" then drive off..

I was dreaming again...

ok .. yeah do that ... OH AND CHECK IT FOR DRUGS before you put it on your trailer.. or call javier over and have him throw the sniffer on it .. just a thought.. getting caught with drug isn't bad.. getting caught with drugs you didn't know you had.. now thats bad.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:40 pm

Warnoffroad wrote:
a2b wrote:
Warnoffroad wrote: I got a millermatic 210, a miller 135 and a miller 375 plasma cutter. The 210 is AWSOME you can cut into anything with a double pass, and the 375 is too much of a pain.
i'd say you are on crack now...i would give anything for a plasma cutter. i just spent 3 hours with a blow torch sunday cuttingo on my new frame. the plasma cutter would have been soooo much better. also, why did you get 2 welders???????????????????
the plasma cutter just takes too much time to get us to I think. I did my traction bar brakets with it and then spent another 2 hours with the bench grinder tryin to make them look good. At first I got the 135, then I just wanted somethin that I could run a spool gun off of and that could burn into thicker stuff.

Well, I got my plasma cutter and tried it out today. Words can not describe it.

Man, it's nice! Much cleaner cuts than a torch. Now I just need to work on following a line with it. My first try zig-zagged all over the place. Not a straight line to say the least. Still looked better than a torch cut though. Oh well, practice, practice, practice!

Bad_Ass_S10 · Post by **Bad_Ass_S10** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:28 pm

I try to find a straight edge of some sort to make a cut with plazma cutter, even if you burn the straight edge its better than trying to free hand cut, but when cutting curves, its a lil more tricky, I try to cut a lil extra and then go back and recut to the line (not trying to cut on line the first time)
thats the way I do it but it you think of any better ways fill me in

2bunik · Post by **2bunik** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:37 pm

my buddy says he uses a 2x4 dont know how effective it is but it works for him..

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat May 15, 2004 3:31 am

One thing I tried was using my other hand to steady the torch, kind of like a pin stripper does when painting. It sort of worked but it had my left hand a little too close to "ground zero" for my comfort. I've heard of using the 2x4 trick for straight cuts. I don't think I'm going to do too many curves though. Mostly 90 and 45 degree angles when I make brackets and braces and stuff like that.

Warnoffroad · Post by **Warnoffroad** » Sun May 16, 2004 7:35 pm

2bunik wrote:my buddy says he uses a 2x4 dont know how effective it is but it works for him..

sounds like a great idea, wouldnt the 2x4 light up

Warnoffroad · Post by **Warnoffroad** » Sun May 16, 2004 7:37 pm

GaryH wrote:My first try zig-zagged all over the place

thats happens to on every cut

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:29 am

Warnoffroad wrote:
2bunik wrote:my buddy says he uses a 2x4 dont know how effective it is but it works for him..
sounds like a great idea, wouldnt the 2x4 light up

The "flame" that comes out is actually very small and confined. Even with my guide hand less than 2 inches away, it didn't feel that hot. Most of the heat is blowing through the metal (unless I try to go too fast). The part of the torch that would be touching the 2x4 would still be a 1/2 inch away due to the size of the torch head so I don't think it would burn it. I cut something yesterday that was painted and noticed the paint wasn't even burnt 1/4" away from the cut.

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:30 am

I have used cardboard, and masonite as templates for large curves.

A level works nicely as a straight edge, as does a good heavy carpenters square.

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