Recommendations for an inexpensive handgun

Post by **Walt** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:43 am

Alright, time for another firearm.

I'm looking for an inexpensive handgun, and don't mind buying used. I'd like a semi-auto 9mm. I don't have a brand preference as long as it's not Jimenez or an SNS. I'd like something cheap, but would rather not buy than get something questionable.

I've been looking around, and am eyeing a Hi Point .45 ACP. Seems like a reliable, low cost weapon. Most of the reviews I've read have been very positive. Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance guys!

WVHogRider · Post by **WVHogRider** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:56 am

I've also been planning on buying an inexpensive handgun, and considered the Hi-Point. Several people at work have them, and they consider them to be very good for the price. Simple and they do the job.
One retiree that I talk to from work even bought one for each of his five daughters, his wife and a couple for himself. He figured he didn't need to fuss whether they got scratched, dinged, etc since they were not a high end gun, which he has several of, (he has over 100 guns).

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:57 am

Why were you looking at a 9mm and then researching a 45acp? Does this mean you are looking for an inexpensive reliable semi-auto 9mm and larger?

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:03 am

Not an expert, but I love my 9mm Beretta FS

When I did my research the Taurus 9mm was a good value. Their guns are molds handed down from Beretta and updated. They have a lifetime guarantee. Taurus PT92 9mm

I was tempted at the time, but bought mine for the Beretta name.

9mm ammo is everywhere and affordable to shoot. Price ammunition before you buy.

Post by **Walt** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:13 am

I was looking at the Hi Point 9mm, and noticed the other models. Yes, I guess 9mm and larger.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:10 pm

From the limited researching I have done on the Hi Points I feel compelled to say that I would only buy one if, that was all that I could afford and I needed it NOW! That is just me though. Having carried handguns professionally for 31 yrs (including my stint in the Marines) I tend to be a little picky when it comes to firearms. I'd probably skimp on food and everything else until I could afford something used over $400 if, you want a semi-auto. The Hi Points might be nice in your tackle box but, little more, IMO. If, price is a big concern then I'd look at a low end revolver in 38 spl or 357 magnum. Maybe a used Charter Arms or Taurus. Just me though, Walt! I'd rather take a loss and sell you one of mine than to see you depend on one of them for home defense or concealed carry.

Post by **Walt** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:24 pm

Maybe I'm just picky, but I've always prefered a semi-auto to a revolver. Don't know why though.

It's going to be a Christmas present from my folks and my wife. Are you wanting to sell any of yours Reed?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:47 pm

Revolver versus a quality semi-auto reliability has been argued about for decades but, revolver versus "inexpensive" semi-auto is another story. I'd take a S&W Model 66 or 19 wheel gun over that Hi Point w/o blinking. Do you know any gun dealers? Have you shopped much in stores? Are any dealers your customers? There's a site to buy guns from that is pretty cheap but, they must be shipped to a dealer near you. The dealer will probably charge you $20 to do the transfer. Might speed things up to have him give you a copy of his license and you can make sure the copy goes to where it is needed promptly. I don't know the name of the site right off but, I helped a gal at work get her husband's Xmas gift a few years back and she'll know the website if, you can wait until Monday night. I don't have any handguns I want to sell but if, you needed one badly I'd sell a Sig 220 in 45 acp for a beating. I've $550 in it before the 2 extra stainless mags making a total of 4 mags for it.

Another option is that when the dealer knows you are shopping online, he may sell one to you at his cost plus $20. There is one here that does it. I haven't had a license since '96 and my last purchase was five years ago. I have just recently began catching up with the industry but, I have a ways to go.

Post by **Walt** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:17 pm

Hmm...ok. I've been two several pawn shops, and most of them are pretty rediculous with their prices. I went looking for my dad a rifle a few months ago, one similar to my Remington 742, and found several, including the replacement 7400 model, but they were way to high. The lowest price I got on a 742 out of three local shops was $375, which is crazy.

I'm not in dire need of it, as I have a baseball bat and several other things I can grab if need be.

I had an old S&W 9mm that was given to me in pretty rough shape years ago, but it would shoot straight, and rarely jammed. Recently it was stolen when my father-in-law was taking it to someone he knew to refurb it/clean it up. Needless to say, I wasn't happy. It still hasn't turned up.

I will keep looking and see what I can come up with, but frankly I don't want my folks spending alot of money on me right now. I might see if I can do a little on the backside, and pay for part of it, since I'll have to pick it up and pay for it anyway.

I've seen alot of mid-range 9mm's going for in the low $400/upper $300 range. I might see if I can find a nice one a bit below that range. Reed, if you think of that site, let me know.

EDIT: I just got a callback from a trooper I left a message for yesterday, he's doing some looking for me. He's supposed to be calling me back in the next few minutes.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:06 pm

Upper $300s and lower $400s is more like it. I will ask Crissy (my fellow coworker smoking buddy) on Monday what that site's name is. MSRPs has really jumped since I dealt with guns. My last gun, I bought was a Glock 23C with night sights and it was just under $500. The model was relatively new (brings a premium price tag) but, I bought it from a good friend (retired Trooper) who was in the business then but, no longer.

04crewvt · Post by **04crewvt** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:14 pm

My Taurus PT945 comes in at around $435 not a Sig by any means but in a pinch any .45 pointed at anyone should give them the idea that they should reconsider their current activities.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:27 pm

Walt wrote:Hmm...ok. I've been two several pawn shops, and most of them are pretty rediculous with their prices. ...............

Think of guns as trucks with "sticker prices" Would you pay sticker for a truck? I'd price any gun with a high price tag with the hopes that a Mrs. Hoff would walk in

Think of most gun dealers as car dealer salesmen and depending on the amount of dealers in your area work them that way. If they pull that stupid writing down an offer on a blank notepad, ask them if, they will write down what the price is for and if, you can take it with you to compare his price with elsewhere.

gocntry · Post by **gocntry** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:43 pm

If Your Looking For "Ebay" Type Sites To Buy Guns From Try

Gunbroker

Or

Auction Arms

I Havent Purchased Anything Personally From These Sites But They Are Ones I Browse Thru Now & Then

Post by **Walt** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:04 pm

Ok, my trooper buddy refered me to a local who runs a Gun repair shop that most local law enforcement use. He claims that the guy is the cheapest--and best in the state, and he's not a pawn shop.

I'm going by there in a few minutes to see what he has.

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:48 pm

i have fired a 92FS berreta many many many many times, in all types of situations, from tactical to fun, i HATE IT, seriously, i know everything about them, know how to fix them, clean them, been trained by Spec Ops on correct ways to fire them, and guess what, i still hate them, BUY A GLOCK DUDE!!!! i have a Glock 17 (9mm) and i love it, everything people say bad about them is wrong, except for the lack of safety, but as long as you dont leave one in the chamber, you are good, i carry mine with one in the chamber most times and had no AD's it shoots perfect, and it fires thru anything, the other night when i got stuck and walked for 2 hrs over under and thru the woods, dropping it in mud, falling in water puddles, it still fired perfectly, even my girlfriend who has never fired a gun likes it, it doesnt kick hard, its light, it hsa a consistant trigger pull (unlike the Berretta that is a double action((heavy trigger pull first shot)) and single action ((light trigger pull after first shot or when cocked))), big benefit when trying to be on target at short notice, just my advice though, I love my Glock and will buy more down the road

BADs Crew · Post by **BADs Crew** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:57 pm

Since we are on the subject of guns.

I like these. Beretta Shotgun
, Auto Shotgun , I know there not hand guns but their still hot.

quickbiker · Post by **quickbiker** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:09 pm

Maximous wrote:except for the lack of safety

If you ever have to defend yourself, the last thing you want to worry about is a safety. The adrenaline's running, the only thing on the mind is pulling the trigger. Glock or double action revolver is the only way to go. And between those, I'd pick a revolver, since reliability would be a key factor with me anyhow.

04crewvt · Post by **04crewvt** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:37 am

The only safety I rely on with my PT945 is the one between my ears. It is carried with a round in the chamber,dec_cked,safety off, just draw point and shoot. In a personal defense situation I am not going to notice or worry about the long hard double action first shot nor about where the round will hit since most armed conflicts occur at less the 15ft and at that distance I can hit minute of human accuracy all day long.

mjmcdowell · Post by **mjmcdowell** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:31 am

.02 worth.... Handgun, for what use? this can have alot of influence on your purchase, price of course, but rember you want a mechanicly sound one by from a trusted shop or take it to a reliable smith to check it out, action revolver or semi auto, revolver muchn simpler semi auto.. mess up the feed lips of your magazine... well now you just may have a single shot, revolver/ ammo, semi auto, ammo/mag(s) gun, youre milage may very on this choice, caliber, back to the top some are better for some uses than others ,think about that one, sefety/being safe, this is not a "no brainer"!! keep your finger away from them triger untill you want to shoot AD's??? look to last statement, your brain is the best saftey for any firearm. Please take a familizeration course, (Some may not have todepending on ther lifes craft... but they are probably not asking the original question) when you are around guns think guns this little phrase we use at the end of our basic fam. course for a NYS carry permit, " It's not a pencil.. make a mistake you own it it does not come with an erraser" Forgive me this was more than .02 worth I doh't intend to preach I am no expert and I like all you guys and Idont want any one to have a bad experience, stay safe.. I mean it mjmcdowell, happy late Bird day to all!!!

Post by **Walt** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:54 am

I have a pretty healthy respect for firearms. I have some experience with handguns, but much more with rifles and shotguns. I have a cabinet for storage, as well as locks on everything, and loaded magazines/ammunition is stored in a locked drawer in the bottom of the cabinet. In the case of my pistol, I kept it in my nightstand drawer, with the trigger locked, and kept the magazine in the top drawer of my dresser. Since the dresser is only a few feet from the side of my bed, I could grab the gun, and get the magazine in a few seconds.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:35 am

Please, Magazine ≠ Clip

Below are examples of clips

Magazine

I know this this is reversed but, "If you are gonna Walk, the Walk you, go gotta learn to Talk the Talk"

"Here endeth the lesson the lesson"

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:59 am

When I chose my Beretta there were several influences. One of which is silly, but a factor all the same. The movie Lethal Weapon. Mel's Beretta was cool

I did lots, and lots of research. Accuracy, dependability, ease of use, longevity, and even the aspects of it as an investment.

The military did extensive testing and settled on the 9mm Beretta. Those tests are available. While with any choice there will be those who disagree, do your own research. The fact that they did choose this gun means that they are and will be parts availability. The prices will be reasonable (supply and demand).

The Taurus really did meet all but the resale value. The Beretta seems to hold a higher value. It's initial investment is higher too though. Had I not found an excellent deal from a friend on a pistol with less than one box of ammunition fired, I would probably have a Taurus now.

With any brand there are devout followers. The old Ford / Chevy arguments rise up in the Beretta / Glock / S&W wars just the same.

The compostites and their micro fracture problems really turned me off.

Do what fits you. I have a large hand and the large frame pistols are more comfortable for me to shoot.

I have a lazer on mine, since it was intended as yours as a nightime comfort piece. That is something to consider. the intimidation factor is there. Surefire has some nice lighting now as well.

Take your time and look at this as a lifelong investment.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:09 am

BADs Crew wrote:Since we are on the subject of guns. I like these. Beretta Shotgun
, Auto Shotgun , I know there not hand guns but their still hot.

Those loads that the exhibition shooter was using were so light that the shotgun had to be highly modified. I'd like to seem one hand shoot it with No. 4 or 00 buck shot.

I do have a HK-Binnelli M1 Super 90 that I had in my rig or with me since 1990

Binnelli shotgun

Linked image. While it was under the maximum file size limit , it was really wide. Images under 600 pixels wide are better. That way we don't have to scroll side to side to read the posts. Link't the image-HJ

Post by **Walt** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:08 am

Thanks for the lesson in terminology.

I did get SNS right though.

kauaibuilt47 · Post by **kauaibuilt47** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:06 pm

Maximous wrote:BUY A GLOCK DUDE!!!! i have a Glock 17 (9mm) and i love it, everything people say bad about them is wrong, except for the lack of safety, but as long as you dont leave one in the chamber, you are good, i carry mine with one in the chamber most times and had no AD's it shoots

Glock is classified as a double action only pistol. The safeties that it has (3 of em) is mainly to stop AD's if you drop/bump the weapon while a round is chambered. The Glock's real safety is your finger not being on the trigger unless you want to shoot it - normal handgun safety.

Ive shot a bunch of handguns over the years and I can honestly say I dont like the 1911 style hand grips. I just ordered a Glock 23 - S&W .40 round, compact. It may be a little big for concealed carry but I should be able to do so and the wife should be able to shoot it. I almost got the sub-compact 45ACP but figured that would be too much for the wife.

Like someone else said, depending on what youre buying it for should determine what you buy. Personal/home defense, concealed carry - you want a better weapon that wont jam/malfunction when you need it, large enough caliber for a 1-shot stop, and cheap enough ammo that you actually go out and practice.

For plinking and general firearms fun, go w/ something cheap and less reliable since youre life isnt going to depend on it.

http://www.packing.org/ - state handgun law info: when I applied for my CCW the sheriff guys directed me to this website. Must be pretty accurate.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm - good general wewapons info
http://www.handgunsmag.com/
http://www.gunbroker.com/ - weapons auction site
http://www.gunsamerica.com/

Post by **Walt** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:37 pm

Yea, it'll get a laser or gun-mounted flashlight within the first few days of my aquiring it.

I think I'd prefer a flashlight. I'll have to do some looking. I do like some of the SureFires.

Maximous · Post by **Maximous** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:01 pm

i put my .02 in, this is for info purposes only, berretta only won the military bid buy a few hundred bucks and only changed there bid a few hours before closing of bids, they beat out S&W, it is highly speculated that they had an inside source and bought there bid, not to mention that soon after they were picked up by the US Military, a few blew up in S.E.A.L.S. faces, hence the phrase "youre not a seal till you have tasted Italian Steel"

i carry a Glock 17 concealed, it may be harder than the smaller ones, but i survive, also, Walt, go for the M-6 from surefire, it is a Flashlight/Laser combo, easy to use, very bright, operates as a flashlight, laser, or both, its a bit pricey, but it is worth it

and as for the polimeer (SP?) frame, extremely durable, and for extra help deciding, check the holster of most city county and state cops holsters, GLOCK 17

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:02 pm

HenryJ wrote:.........The military did extensive testing and settled on the 9mm Beretta. Those tests are available. While with any choice there will be those who disagree, do your own research.

Since it was part of my job as a federal firearms instructor I did extensive research as well. Beretta barely beat the Sig Sauer by a small margin on the bids and much of the military, powers to be, favored the Sig. The Sig and Beretta were the only two guns that passed all the tests That being said, the Beretta won the contract. Immediately after the contract was awarded to Beretta for the M9 pistol the military decided that they needed something more compact for the tankers and some aviators. They turned to Sig and chose a compact version of the P226, that was narrowly edged out by the Beretta in the original M9 testing. The M11 which is based upon the the P226 is a compact version designated P228/229. The Navy Seals jumped on the full size P226s for their needs but. I do not know what they use now.

I guess the whole point that I am trying to make is that the US military went to the 9mm because of commitments to NATO to standardize handgun ammunition. The cold war ended a few yrs later and what chance is something going to happen now that requires you to run to the French to borrow some ammo from them when you run dry?

The vast majority the elite US military and law enforcement units are not using 9mm except in their HK MP5s. They are using the old tried and proven 45 acp. The majority of those units are also using a highly modified version of a design that Mr Browning came up with at the beginning of the last century, the 1911 45 acp. Makes you wonder why gun manufacturers like S&W, Sig, Dan Wesson and Springfield Arms (not to mention all the smaller custom producers) are producing a variant of 1911 now. Most be a little more there than just being fashionable.

Not really bashing Beretta (to much) am basically bashing the 9mm

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:36 pm

f9k9 wrote:... the whole point that I am trying to make is that the US military went to the 9mm because of commitments to NATO to standardize handgun ammunition... the old tried and proven 45 acp... bashing the 9mm

Exactly why I chose 9mm. Standardized, available in every country, therefore cheap. Most places 9mm ammo is half the cost of 45 auto.
9mm ammo is fast. At times 25% quicker than 45 with half the powder. I can place three round within a quarter after a day of shooting the speed contributes to its accuracy. The 45 hurts to shoot. My wife would not be interested, or impressed afterward. When I was doing my research the FBI carried 9mm FMJ since it was the only one to penetrate the bullet proof vest. 17 round magazine vs 10 round...

This debate can go on an on.

The stopping / knock down power of the heavier 45 bullet, less penetration therefore less risk to bystanders.

There are all sides to the debate. Each has its place and it really comes down to what you want to do with it.

This is a pretty good read: Defensive use of firearms: Handgun selection there are many embedded links that delve deeper in to a subject. Example choice of ammunition

I love this quote

-

Evan Marshall wrote:...the three most important components of stopping power are bullet placement, bullet placement and bullet placement.

mjmcdowell · Post by **mjmcdowell** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:55 pm

Well... more .02 worth..... f9k9 uh,huh.... the old misuse of the terms magazines/clips. Penetration/overpenetration, for social purposes if you are concerned about this ,"Glasser" blue tip rounds come in many calibre choices and have proven very effective without over penetration, hard cover will defeate them, walls ,sheetrock, studs you get the picture. I am a unabashed fan of the 1911 Govt. model in the old venerable .45 calibre for over 30 yrs. carried in condition 1, now with a Glasser in the tube and 7 in the magazine those 7 being Federal "Hydroshock" rounds. When I first made the decision to carry concealed most of the time , one and only choice was to be had, 230 Gr. ball it was/is reliable as all get out in an out of the box plain jane gun, but boy it would "penetrate". A lot of water has gone over the balistic dam since those days, factory guns with all the modifications that used to be the pistolsmiths domain can be had, just look at "Kimber" for a start. These guns will digest the many bullet styles available today with no problem where as the old horses almost had to be fed ball ammo to a fault and the sights! my eyes couldn't find the sights on an old Govt. model now if my life depended on it, no pun intended, HJ.. the 1911 model and its many clones and the ammo to go with it is about as timeless as an ..aa..hem "Jeep" and probably will never go out of style as many experts who carry a handgun for a living, instructors and some milatary folks will probably alway look to the old proven .45 should they have to call on a hand gun round..... but .9mm, .40's . the new ,357 auto round and even the mouse gun round the .25 or or even the .22 rf along with many others all will have there folowings for many purposes. You have to like and be profecient with what you choose, remember the old saying "beware the man with one gun" it's all good. That term "mousegun" is some times used to disdane these last two mentioned when used for social purposes, but... many times it has been used to downgrade hostilities... and even terminate them as I am sure f9k9 can professionaly attest to. Ah firearms..... I have shot, owned, studied, read and for a year of living dangerously, depended on them daily. I always will have an intrest in them. Done now.. stay safe, mjmcdowell

04crewvt · Post by **04crewvt** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:07 pm

While I love my .45 for sheer power my day to day carry gun is a Bersa Thunder .380. Yes the 9mm short is a lower power cartridge but I can easily empty an entire magazine into the end of a soup can at 25ft just about as fast as I can pull the trigger. with the .45 even with the ported comped barrel if you fire like that even I will start to notice that it isn't very pleasant on the hands. The important thing is no matter what you buy if you don't practice enough to become totally comfortable with your weapon and to know exactly what it can and can't do it won't matter if you have a pea shooter or a howitzer you will not be any better off than being unarmed.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:53 pm

HenryJ wrote:Exactly why I chose 9mm. Standardized, available in every country.............

You are, of course, correct in your logic, Brule. The debate is endless but, a couple of things come to mind.

1. Convicts (hardcore) spend their time in prison working out, practicing to defeat restraints and disarming officers (it's all captured on correctional facility's surveilance cameras). I have seen demonstrations in "Street Survival Seminars" put on by Calibre Press that takes a seasoned uniformed officer with several years on the street, out of the class, place a suspect against a wall. The officer already has his Beretta pulled and before the officer could react, the suspect is off the wall leaving the officer holding his receiver without the slide assembly before he knew it. Now, the suspect was free to use slide barrel assembly as a weapon. Early issued Berettas that were issued to departments like the LAPD would correct it's shortcomings to being disassembled in their hands by taking a dust cover from an auto tire valve and placing it on the button used to disassemble the Beratta. Which version of the Beretta do you have?

HenryJ wrote:Exactly why I chose 9mm. Standardized, available in every country.............

2. Again, with all due respect.......That reminds me of my Mother jumping my rear after I got home from some silly escapade

I would hear..."If your friends jump off a cliff, does that make it right for you too?" Because NATO chose a round, why did the US take so long to fall in compliance? I think that lesson was learned in the "Boxer Rebellion" in the early 1900s when 45s had to be rushed into production.

3. I am not going to place myself in jeopardy because I can save a few pennys on ammo. I want a round that is moderately plentiful and effective. Days after 9/11 our States' full-time elite Army National Guard unit called me up to borrow a case of 9mm hollow points to work the airports. They couldn't find any in local stores. Normally they are required to carry FMJ only. I had a stockpile because we wanted as far away from the woeful round as possible and I had not anticipated that in the previous year's order. That is a possible argument about it's availability. The Guard had already called Fort Knox and Fort Campbell located here close by and struck out.

We can debate all of this for decades and both sides can provide reams of supporting evidence for their cause. Under the Geneva Convention our military has been required to use FMJ (full metal jacket) rounds. They wound (in many cases) and do not kill. One soldier is wounded and two more are required to get him to medical assistance making one shot take three out of the fight. Why, did my state's elite unit want hollow point rounds? Because the use of deadly force is to stop the threat from continuing from his/her actions then and there. I was never taught to pass on to my fellow officers to kill a bad guy, we all were taught to Stop and nothing more.

Now if. you want to discuss what rounds are better than others in the 9mm, I was involved in my agency's testing for that too. Even though my agency sent me to Sigarms, located in Exeter, NH, for their armorer's course, I was allowed to torture test the Glocks in the field in the mid 90s.

Standard issue is now the Glock in 40 S&W. Models 22 or 23. officer's or agent's choice with the Glock 27 being issued as an off duty/backup weapon.

Which is a better handgun? Up to you

Due to the earlier Sig's rusting issue, I picked Glock for it's rust resistance. When I was torture testing the Glock. I spent my summers in a motel room with a tub that had waterjets and a sauna. I'd come dragging in after 12-16 hrs out running the terrain cutting down someone's Christmas and tossed the Glock in the water every night while I sipped on a cold one

. Many of us fired it 4-5 times a week and it never cleaned or oiled. When the end of the eradication season arrived, 3 of us fired that Glock 19 over a 1000 rounds of +P+ 9 MM and not a bobble. BTW, I may have some of that laying around if, one could figure out how to ship it.

Arguments can be made for almost anything. I guess I am just presenting my argument. I'd would just like the points that I presented to be considered in whatever research that you perform to make your own decision, Walt.

This is about the only arena that I would contemplate standing toe to toe with Brule in

but, you just need to research it all yourself. I think that website I talked about has been mentioned by another but, will ask my coworker Monday anyway

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:10 pm

Jump in anytime Border Man

kwalsh · Post by **kwalsh** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:10 pm

If you want the home security/defense weapon, go with the .45 ACP. If you want the target plinker, go with the 9mm.

something to consider.....American Rifleman's Handgun Of The Year & Shooting Industry Academy of Excellence's Handgun Of The Year went to Springfield Armory's XD .45ACP. http://www.springfield-armory.com/index.shtml

I am a huge fan of Ruger's revolvers, & both Kimber & Springfield Armory's autos.

Before I do any store shopping, I use this website to check out the prices.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/gunlocator ... rstart.asp

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:28 pm

f9k9 wrote:Which version of the Beretta do you have?

The later model as there is no place to put a valve cap

f9k9 wrote:
HenryJ wrote:Exactly why I chose 9mm. Standardized, available in every country.............
...That reminds me of my Mother jumping my rear after I got home from some silly escapade I would hear..."If your friends jump off a cliff, does that make it right for you too?"

You left off the most important part of that quote

, therefore cheap.

If you can not afford to buy enough ammunition to remain proficient ,there is no value in the weapon. Time spent shooting and becoming comfortable with the pistol is time well spent. Making it all affordable was what I was getting at. I shoot with a friend who shoots .45 auto. He ends up sharing my 9mm by the end of the day. Easier on the wrist and I can afford to shoot twice as many shells for the same cost.
The reference to the countries was not meant to align myself with any organization, but merely that ammo is plentiful and cheap (something I wish gasoline was!

)

f9k9 wrote: I am not going to place myself in jeopardy because I can save a few pennys on ammo. I want a round that is moderately plentiful and effective.

I mostly agree. I think you need to be comfortable with the round.

Historically, people have generally been advised to use the most powerful caliber with which they can reliably place their shots in a reasonable time frame from the handgun that is ergonomic and of practical size for the user. I would offer two caveats:

1. Assess your ability to place shots reliably under the worst circumstances, not the best ones. A handgun which may seem practical when fired two-handed in an upright position may not seem as useful when fired one-handed, with less than a perfect grip, shooting from an unconventional position.

If you seriously want to stop someone, grab the shotgun

f9k9 wrote:This is about the only arena that I would contemplate standing toe to toe with Brule

I hope we are neither standing toe to toe or back to back and counting a ten count

I would rather hope we are standing shoulder to shoulder , offering all the information we can, trying to help someone make the decision that is right for them

border man · Post by **border man** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:54 pm

f9k9 wrote:Jump in anytime Border Man

You have much more experience than I will ever have. Aside from handling M16s and above in the Army, I really don't have any input on handguns. I started the patrol with the Berreta 96D .40 Brigadier LEM. Having no real prior handgun experience (bad habits) I did fairly well with it. The only problem being my small hands. The grip on the Beretta was too big. About a year and a half ago, I was allowed to switch to the H&K USP Compac .40cal which fit me much better (although the it has a smaller intimidation factor

) I do know that either weapon has an amazingly long and heavy trigger pull, and that I shot better with the Beretta. It's al a moot point now, as the entire CBP branch of the DHS has awarded a new handgun contract to H&K for the P2000 .40cal (full size/compact) and SigSauer for a 9mm. Border Patrol gets the H&K, we have lots of ammo, and the Port weenies (legacy customs) keep their 9mm. I do have tons of spare LE .40 cal ammo in my garage (more than I can shoot), but I don't think Uncle Sam will let me get rid of it.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:14 pm

HenryJ wrote:............If you seriously want to stop someone, grab the shotgun
f9k9 wrote:This is about the only arena that I would contemplate standing toe to toe with Brule
I hope we are neither standing toe to toe or back to back and counting a ten count I would rather hope we are standing shoulder to shoulder , offering all the information we can, trying to help someone make the decision that is right for them

We are basically attempting to send the same message

Standing shoulder to shoulder and you run dry.....don't ask me for ammo unless we have worked out this problem beforehand and agreed on a compromise. I guess I could learn to put up with a Beretta in 40S&W if, it was your turn to pick to pick the handgun

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:29 pm

f9k9 wrote:...you run dry.....don't ask me for ammo unless we have worked out this problem beforehand and agreed on a compromise.

When in rome...

Maybe finding out what his buddies shoot would be a good idea

Then you can bum ammo

I am pretty sure I'd own a 40 cal if I lived next door to Border man

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:44 pm

HenryJ wrote:.........................................I am pretty sure I'd own a 40 cal if I lived next door to Border man

Then the same may be interpreted to be true if, you lived next to me? I never said what my preferred pistol calibre was. There are a couple of ones that would not be in short supply if, needed that are located here

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:12 pm

border man wrote:....................You have much more experience than I will ever have.........

My experience is five years old. It is like computers. In a yr it is badly outdated. You are there now! I remember you guys were out doing the rest of us using cartridge loops on your gun belts when we had speed loaders and smoked us in the reloading revolver times

For you newbie handgun enthusiasts, there was a time that if. the Border Patrol asked for a handgun mod.......it happened! I hope it is still the same today!

cdnuser · Post by **cdnuser** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:38 pm

Wow...All I can say is wow.

This post would get me in trouble in Canada.

Tight guns laws here keep people from buying hand guns (lawfully).
You can get a hand gun but it would be easier to walk on water.

Unlike Americans we don't have the right to bear arms.

Rifles on the other hand is a different story. Lots of hunters in the great white north.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:46 pm

cdnuser wrote:Wow...All I can say is wow. ...............Unlike Americans ........................

But, you are an American with just different gun laws. Your troops are in Afghanistan with our other NATO allies and doing good work like your troops have always done historically

border man · Post by **border man** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:19 am

f9k9 wrote:
cdnuser wrote:Wow...All I can say is wow. ...............Unlike Americans ........................
But, you are an American with just different gun laws. Your troops are in Afghanistan with our other NATO allies and doing good work like your troops have always done historically

You are from America Jr.

Post by **Walt** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:54 pm

After a recommendation by several officers I know, I've been eyeing the Smith and Wesson Sigma 9mm and .40 pistols. Most of the web reviews I've read of them are positive. I was told that S&W was sued by Glock because of the Sigma series. A local Gun guru that I've recently been intruduced to can get me the 9mm in stainless/black, or stainless/olive drab for $285, and the .40 for $300.

Any thoughts?

Post by **HenryJ** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:59 am

S&W is good in my book. It is a little sharp around the edges, but really good.
Kind of like the difference between a Craftsman wrench and SnapOn. Both are good tools, the SnapOn is a little bit smoother.
I own Craftsman. I don't know if I would work with them everyday , all day long with my life at risk. That may or may not apply.

How is the price of ammunition? Planning on a visit to Border man's garage?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:20 am

I have no personal knowledge on the Sigmas. The first ones out did not bring rave reviews but, they have come a long way since then. I didn't like some guns because of their size. Size isn't going to be a factor in your decision process

Post by **Walt** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:51 am

The sigma's are currently on the third generation. I think S&W has fixed most of the problems associated with the previous two generations, with the exception of the stiff trigger. As for ergonomics, most of the reviews I've read say that it's better than a Glock, but not quite as good as some other S&W models.

Actually, the more I've learned about the subject, the more size has been a factor. I've decided on a full size, or compact, but not a sub compact, as I have large hands. I had a chance to get my hands on a sigma the other night, and I liked the feel. It felt more comfortable to me than a Glock 17, or a 22 that the guy had.

I know 9mm ammo is everywhere, so that shouldn't be a problem getting it at a decent price, but what about .40 cal ammo? Is it usually much more expensive, or as common as it's 9mm counterpart?

S&W Sigma SW9VE 9mm Stainless/Black

Glock 17 for comparison

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:46 am

40S&W Prices

9mm Prices

Post by **Walt** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:01 am

Thanks Reed. Do you have a preference between a 9mm and a .40?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:36 am

When we were finally offered the Glocks in 40 I traded my 9mm Sig P226 in for one. So, the answer is yes.

Post by **Walt** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:41 am

Ok. Why do you prefer the .40? Greater stopping power is the main thing I can think of. Any other reasons?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:19 pm

Walt wrote:.........Why do you prefer the .40? Greater stopping power is the main thing I can think of.........

Additional stopping power, you generally lose only a couple rounds capacity in the same size handgun frame (that an average size hand can handle) and it's the largest round that fits in a high capacity mag in a medium sized handgun. If, it is for just home defense and hands like Brule's or Brian's I'd bump up to a full size glock in 45 acp or 10mm. The is a whole new debate on ammo types for home defense but, settle on a handgun first

Post by **Walt** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:47 pm

I ended up going with the Smith and Wesson Sigma 9mm.

It's a very light weapon, and feels very comfortable in my hand. I haven't fired it yet as I have been ordered to wait until Christmas. Technically it's a Christmas gift.

BTW, Reed, I corrected my terminological error.

S-10CREWCAB.NET

Recommendations for an inexpensive handgun

Recommendations for an inexpensive handgun

Handguns

Handguns... this could be called a rant probably.. sorry