Off-Road semi-noob

[2kwik4u]

Have an interesting/odd question.

I was looking at the safari bar that came on my ZR5 last night. Noticed that it would SEVERLY cut into the approach angle of the truck. Even lifted, it seems to add a significant amount of length to the overall truck.

If you're serious into off-roading isn't this kind of counter-productive? I know there is a need for lights, and front end protection and all, but what gives?

edited title-HJ

[jeff024]

a brush guard the covers the lights and attaches to the tow hooks im sure would be better and you can put lights on them and wouldnt hang lower then the front valance

[Walt]

Depends on what type of offroading you do. If you're into trails or rock climbing, then yes, it's not a good investment. On the otherhand, 90% of my offroading involves muddy roads, fields, and pastures, where approach angles mean very little and total ground clearance is most important. I need to modify my pushbar to get a bit more clearance in the front so it'll look a bit better.

[2kwik4u]

Interesting.

I had a '96 Nissan Hardbody....Extended cab 4wd, 4cyl 5spd....I put 31x9.50's on it from Big-O shortly after I got it, and that thing would go dayum near anywhere. But with the big tires, and relatively steep approach and departure angles I could just pull up to obstacle (small downed trees, pretty deep embankments out of creeks, etc), and it would "pull" it's way up.

I really don't see the ZR5 doing that anytime soon

[F9K9]

I really don't see the ZR5 doing that anytime soon

Not stock. Unless you know S-10s a tenth of what you know i.e. rims. You couldn't tell it was 4wd. I got tired of people asking me if it was or not

[HenryJ]

You guys might be a little surprised at just what can be done with a stock truck. While the approach angle is obviously less than a Jeep, we more than make up for it in weight distribution and articulation.

There are improvements that can be made easily to fit the terrain you frequent.
If approach angle is what you need. Raise that safari bar and mount it through the openings for the tow hooks. Check out Tamas' rig. A search on ZR2.com should show at least a couple that have done this.
If you need more , ditch the front valance. Still need more? Look to the Marvelous Mystery Lift. That not enough? Go SFA. Check out Paul's truck. That won't satisfy your needs? Ask Hobie about his Formula Toy.

One thing to remember is that a driver who knows their vehicle can do quite a bit. Give it some time and you will learn the tricks for this truck.

[2kwik4u]

Not that I'm going to be hardcore wheeling it like I used to with my Nissan, I was just more curious than anything. As all of the wheeling I did before was into/out of local creeks. Not much else to be found around here so there are alot of advantages to good arrive/depart angles.

After reading through another thread, and seeing a link on tire width vs traction I'm thinking that is another reason that the Nissan did so well. I had those 31x9.50's on there that I got for a smokin deal ($375 for all 4 OTD). My offroad traction was probably better because of it.

Interesting thoughts for sure.

So now my questions are floating to tire selection. Whats it take to get the 31x9.50's to fit? I'd like to avoid a body lift if possible. However a torsion bar crank, and shackles isn't out of the possibility.

Also I DESPISE the look on some of the 4wd S10's that have wheels that are entirely too thin, and stick out entirely too far. I refuse to have the tire past the edge of the stock flare vertically, is this possible with 31x9.50's?

[2kwik4u]

For example....

This looks good

This....not so great IMO

The wheels in the bottom pic stick out WAY to far for my tastes. I think it's exagurated by the lack of ANY flare at all, but you get the point.

The top link shows what appears to be a decent lift with decent sized tires. I wouldn't mind figuring out what member that is, and contacting him/her to determine that exact setup.

[2kwik4u]

Guess I should start searching before I go off posting eh??!?!

Found that the top truck is "bobblesmitty"'s truck. Looking like 30x9.5's with 2" bodylift, and 1.25" spacers on the back....That sound about right to you guys?

[F9K9]

Definitely a BL and probably spacers but, I can't make the tires out. To aggressive for stock OEMs but the size looks close to stock.

[2kwik4u]

Cooper Discover S/T 30x9.5's

[2kwik4u]

In some other thoughts.

Are you guys able to keep the stock driveshaft with a torsionbar crank and shackles?

I've got ~5" of drop on the back of my Xtreme, and need to have the driveshaft modded (shorter). Does the lift cause the driveshaft to be longer? or is there enough insertion in the tranny to be OK?

[HenryJ]

...is there enough insertion in the tranny to be OK?

I have never heard of anyone having problems, even after an axle flip.

[Walt]

In some other thoughts.

Are you guys able to keep the stock driveshaft with a torsionbar crank and shackles?

I've got ~5" of drop on the back of my Xtreme, and need to have the driveshaft modded (shorter). Does the lift cause the driveshaft to be longer? or is there enough insertion in the tranny to be OK?

Mine has never given me any trouble and I've had shackles on my truck almost since I bought it. I recently switched to Bubaloo's shackles, and they're a tad bit longer that my old ones. Still no problems When I was considering a suspension lift (back when I almost has my wife talked into it), several places that I talked to said that I might have to get my shafts lengthened, but that it was a toss up--they'd have to look at it. So if a 6" suspension lift is borderline for getting driveshafts modified, 2 or 3 inches should be fine. Maybe Steve2003 can clarify for me since he has the lift I'm referring to.

[2kwik4u]

Thanks for the info fellas. I figured it would be a "guess and check" type scenario, just wanted some input from the "experts" that are floating around here.

I'm still formulating some more questions concerning towing with a slight lift, and larger tires. As well as some reliability concerns. however, I want to search around a bit, and see if those questions have been answered before.

[2kwik4u]

Well I have found a good reason for a lift, tires, and some addtional mods. Forgot to take my camera though ....I'll get a picture tonight before I wash it off though (nothing spectacular, just some mud on the rockers, and step-bars.

Went out playing this weekend in the local creek. It was up slightly, but nothing extremely high. Managed to get 3/4 of the way across, and it got bumper deep.....Decided that was far enough, and backed out ......lots of good trails on the other side I couldn't get too, and probably only needed another 2" of height ......Was even more concerned since the K&N puts the filter just about the bumper.

Later while exploring the trails on the near side of the water, I quickly found the breakover point when my tire slid off a rock, and let the rock rest not so gently on the frame just between the doors ......Again, another 2" would've been plenty to keep me off that rock.

I'm now 99% sure that I'm going to move the safari bar up as well. Managed to almost snag it a few times when going up/down some hills, or crossing through the "valleys" in between. I'm thinking some 31x9.50's, the "mystery lift"....and if thats not enough, MAYBE a body lift, however I really don't like body lifts, so thats a big maybe.

Overall I have to say I'm about 70% happy with the performance of the truck for it's first time out. I wasn't expecting miracles, or super high performance levels out of a 100% bone stock truck, and really I didn't test the traction, but moreso the clearance. Nothing was so muddy that I sunk in past about 1/2 way on the sidewalls, and really most of it was more gravel/mud mix than anything.

[F9K9]

Sounds like you had some fun

If, you do decide on a BL, Top_Sgt and I are not that far away and would love to help you with it.

[2kwik4u]

Sounds like you had some fun

If, you do decide on a BL, Top_Sgt and I are not that far away and would love to help you with it.

Thanks for the offer of help, I'll never turn it down.

The only reason I would want a BL is to get the cab further from the water, as probably 90% of my offroading will be in/near/around a creek. However a BL doesn't really gain me much since the air intake still sits fairly low.

The bigger tires, and slight suspension lift should be plenty, and still keep it practical for daily driving duties I think. Gotta wait for the tires to wear out before I buy new ones though, so I'm sure it'll be awhile.

[HenryJ]

...probably only needed another 2" of height ...I'm thinking some 31x9.50's, the "mystery lift"....and if thats not enough, MAYBE a body lift, however I really don't like body lifts, so thats a big maybe...

Too get 2" of additional clearance, you will need 33" tires. I haven't seen a 31x9.50. Not that they don't exist, just not a size I have seen.
I am sorry you have had a bad experience with a body lift in the past. There really is no other good option for a small lift on these trucks. That clearance will be needed. There are quite a few additional benefits to a bodylift as well.

The "Mystery lift" is fender cutting, TB crank, 2" rear lift , tires and a bodylift.

Maybe a good set of tires, shields, TB adjustment and rear lift would get you enough to get by? It would be a good start. There are quite a few that have that combination and are going places.
Mud and water are tough obstacles. Lift is about the best advantage. If that is what you frequent, perhaps a "beater" with a SFA would be a good choice?

[2kwik4u]

I don't frequent it enough to get a beater....however that would be the best bet for getting around once there.

Won't the jump from a 28.6" tire (stockers) to a 31" tire, and 1" of lift be enough to get me 2" when measured at the frame? I had 31x9.50's on my Nissan and loved them. Thats the only reason I'm kinda "stuck" on that size. Lemme see if I can find an example. I want to say that they were from Big-O, and were thier BigFoot brand, however I'm not 100% sure.

It's not that I've had a bad experience with a body lift, it's that I REALLY dislike the look of ones I have seen in person, as well as some of the function. I don't get any more clearance on the intake, I don't get any more clearance on the frame, and I have to look at the frame hanging down under the side of the body. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I'll ride back out the "the spot" and take some pictures tonight so you guys can see what I'm talking about.

[F9K9]

Just FYI I have heard of people shortening the FIPKs curved piece to make the intake a little higher.

[2kwik4u]

Just FYI I have heard of people shortening the FIPKs curved piece to make the intake a little higher.

I had a thought similar to that.....However I'm not sure how much that would buy me....Ultimately if it's that deep I probably don't need to be in there anyway

[HenryJ]

...It's not that I've had a bad experience with a body lift, it's that I REALLY dislike the look of ones I have seen in person, as well as some of the function. I don't get any more clearance on the intake, I don't get any more clearance on the frame, and I have to look at the frame hanging down under the side of the body.

I would be interested to see those tires. That would surely help with the rubbing that plagues a truck running 31's without some pretty good cutting.
If you plan on any rough stuff the 30's are the biggest you can do without a bodylift. 31's barely get by even with a 2" bodylift. I just don't see them being practical without.
A body lift does raise the intakes inlet. Your step bars hide the frame so that is not an issue. In our case the pros far outweigh the cons. A little searching here will confirm that. I understand what you are saying about how a bodylift can be done distastefully. However If you add the gap guards , raise the steps, cut the tail pipe, etc. and they just look right. Better than stock, IMO.

[top_sgt]

you can always modify your stock airbox and drop in a K & N filter!! keeps the filter head light level!!

and what F9K9 said about the bodylift,, if you do it,,,, we can help ya with it!!!

[gairbear]

yeah the BL is the cheapest way to get bigger tires and therefor more clearance. Oh and about the tire width...the higher you go the wider you should be...So if your not planning on going too high your tire wishes should be doable.

[Walt]

yeah the BL is the cheapest way to get bigger tires and therefor more clearance. Oh and about the tire width...the higher you go the wider you should be...So if your not planning on going too high your tire wishes should be doable.

It depends on what type of terrain you frequent, and what type of performance you want offroad. A narrow tire is more likelly to "cut through" mud/snow/sand, etc... This is useful when ground clearance is not that big of an issue. A wider tire tends to "float" on the surface, because the weight of the vehicle is spread out over a larger area than a thin tire.

Here's a good example: If you step into soft mud, your foot will sink almost immediatelly, but if you were to put a 1'x1' board under your shoe, and then step into soft mud, your foot won't sink as fast, or won't sink at all.

While the weight remains the same, it's distribution is key. A larger area will provide benefits in some situations, while a smaller area will provide benefits in others.

I hope that explained it well enough. If not I'll dig up a few threads that have better explanations.

[Steve2003]

yeah the BL is the cheapest way to get bigger tires and therefor more clearance. Oh and about the tire width...the higher you go the wider you should be...So if your not planning on going too high your tire wishes should be doable.

It depends on what type of terrain you frequent, and what type of performance you want offroad. A narrow tire is more likelly to "cut through" mud/snow/sand, etc... This is useful when ground clearance is not that big of an issue. A wider tire tends to "float" on the surface, because the weight of the vehicle is spread out over a larger area than a thin tire.

Here's a good example: If you step into soft mud, your foot will sink almost immediatelly, but if you were to put a 1'x1' board under your shoe, and then step into soft mud, your foot won't sink as fast, or won't sink at all.

While the weight remains the same, it's distribution is key. A larger area will provide benefits in some situations, while a smaller area will provide benefits in others.

I hope that explained it well enough. If not I'll dig up a few threads that have better explanations.

Why doesn't that same example apply to snow?

[Walt]

Why doesn't that same example apply to snow?

You got me

I guess it could apply depending on the type of snow--if it's hard packed or not.

[2kwik4u]

It does apply to snow....Thats why honda civic's with FWD, and 2" wide tires get around just fine, and the sports cars with 10" wide tires don't.....thinner tire = better traction in moderate to light snow.

If you get over 8-10" of snow or mud then the wider tire tends to be better, as you "float" instead of "cut through"

[Walt]

It does apply to snow....Thats why honda civic's with FWD, and 2" wide tires get around just fine, and the sports cars with 10" wide tires don't.....thinner tire = better traction in moderate to light snow.

If you get over 8-10" of snow or mud then the wider tire tends to be better, as you "float" instead of "cut through"

Good point.

[Steve2003]

It does apply to snow....Thats why honda civic's with FWD, and 2" wide tires get around just fine, and the sports cars with 10" wide tires don't.....thinner tire = better traction in moderate to light snow.

If you get over 8-10" of snow or mud then the wider tire tends to be better, as you "float" instead of "cut through"

Good point.

Thanks, that clears it up!

[border man]

Also, snow is less dense than say sand or mud. Of course, once it has been packed down it's a different story.

[2kwik4u]

Here's a great read on chosing tires