Throttle Blade Diffuser

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Throttle Blade Diffuser

Post by HenryJ »

f9k9 wrote:I wish someone could point me in the direction of ...the throttle blade mod...
CFM Tech throttle blade and Sonoma96's EGR limiter I don't think there is much here on the throttle blade modification. I would look to some of the other forums for that information.

If you plan is to mod one, just cut off the rounded portion and leave the portion that is riveted to the blade. The flat portion that is attached to the blade serves two purposes. It fills the holes where it is attached and also has a smaller hole for idle speed.

I used the CFM throttle blade and saved the stock blade. I planned to try switching back to stock to better measure the difference, but the retention screws are way too tight to remove now. I broke a torx bit attempting to remove them last time.
Last edited by HenryJ on Mon May 22, 2006 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Throttle Blade Diffuser

Post by F9K9 »

HenryJ wrote:
f9k9 wrote:I wish someone could point me in the direction of ...the throttle blade mod...
CFM Tech throttle blade and Sonoma96's EGR limiter
Maybe I am doing something wrong but, that link is not taking me to the proper thread.
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Re: Throttle Blade Diffuser

Post by HenryJ »

f9k9 wrote:Maybe I am doing something wrong but, that link is not taking me to the proper thread.
That is as "right" as it gets here. The CFM throttle blade is a blade with no diffuser.

Here is a good place to look: SSHotrods.com - Throttle Body

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Post by killian96ss »

Another link to CFM Tech's web site. :D

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Post by F9K9 »

Thanks to you both!
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

i love how they have the side by side photos, but the pic. of the stock TB is off center, to make it look worse than it really is....

i would just cut the stock diffuser off, rather than spend the money on the new blade.

and if you want go back to stock, just get a used TB from the junkyard, or Ebay, for less than that blade costs.
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Post by F9K9 »

crew cab sonoma wrote:i love how they have the side by side photos, but the pic. of the stock TB is off center, to make it look worse than it really is....

i would just cut the stock diffuser off, rather than spend the money on the new blade.

and if you want go back to stock, just get a used TB from the junkyard, or Ebay, for less than that blade costs.
Thanks, I definitely need to have a stock replacement. AG, my extended warranty company is starting to be a pain! I have 55k left on my warranty.
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Post by Walt »

So.....does this provide any more performance?
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Post by top_sgt »

wamason wrote:So.....does this provide any more performance?
yes....any improvements in performance or mileage????????????
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Post by HenryJ »

wamason wrote:So.....does this provide any more performance?
It does offer a huge difference in throttle response. Touch the throttle and it responds. I would say that it is almost , too touchy in four low. If you frequent slow technical terrain, like rock crawling, this might be a good mod to pass on.

There are many differing opinions on why exactly the diffuser exists. Some say it it there to more evenly distribute the EGR gases that are introduced directly below. Removal of the diffuser is reported to create a condition where the forward cylinders receive the majority of the gases. The EGR system is way over engineered to begin with. Some say as much as 70% more than is needed to reduce cylinder operating temperatures. Restricting the EGR flow to minimum acceptable levels should be a good idea.
I did restrict the EGR flow both above and below, as well as adding a TB spacer to help create a little turbulence and aid in mixing the gases.

Another theory is that the diffuser is there to aid in evenly distributing the intake air flow. The argument is that the TB is forward on the intake manifold and by restricting the front of the throttle body the flow is more evenly distributed to the cylinders. Removing the restrictor/diffuser allows too much air to go to the front cylinders and starves the rear cylinders. It is said that the forward cylinders will run lean with the restrictor removed.

I can't say for sure how much improvement in performance there really is. It was too long ago to say for sure. I would like to go back to stock just to measure the difference, but the torx screws that retain the throttle blade are now way too tight, or stuck to attempt removal again.
Would I do it again? Probably. Is it worth the cost of the CFM blade. Not real sure. Is it worth the cost of modding a stock blade? I am a little unsure of that. I have seen the diffuser loosen to the point of falling off in the intake. I would worry that a modded blade might be small enough to go places that could do damage. I feel more comfortable with the CFM blade, myself.

Oh, as to mileage. I saw really no difference.

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Re: Throttle Blade Diffuser

Post by 20Blazer00 »

HenryJ wrote:
f9k9 wrote:Maybe I am doing something wrong but, that link is not taking me to the proper thread.
That is as "right" as it gets here. The CFM throttle blade is a blade with no diffuser.

Here is a good place to look: SSHotrods.com - Throttle Body
I have a better idea. I have done the throttle blade diffuser removal and it increased throttle response off of idle greatly. The friend that did that for me found a throttle body from a 4.8L cadillac northstar in a local wrecking/junkyard and the blade fit perfectly, same diameter throttle body and plate. The throttle plate has no diffuser and it would need to get a hole drilled for the idle passage. If you look at your current plate there is a small hole in the blade, that would have to be drilled into the northstar blade but it is doable. This would be immensely cheaper than what other third party vendors charge for a blade minus the diffuser.

I have also read on the Blazerforum that the 350cuin throttle plate has a smaller diffuser but I can not confirm that since i have not personally found one yet. When I do I will check that one out also...
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

HJ, the theories about the diffuser being there to more evenly distribute EGR or airflow, are two common beliefs.

a third theory, is that it is there to simply dampen the abrupt off idle response that such a large (72mm) TB has on a 4.3.

this is what i believe its really there for.

cutting/removing the diffuser will definetly give you much more abrupt off idle throttle response, to the point of actually being annoying much of the time.

but it wont give any sinificant power increases at WOT. even with the diffuser in place, the TB is still more than big enough to feed the 4.3 more air than it can handle.

i didnt notice any change in mileage either...
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Post by Walt »

I wouldn't mind a bit better throttle response. May have to try this one :)
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Post by killian96ss »

I happen to like my CFM Tech throttle blade. :D I don't understand why some of you think it makes the throttle too touchy? :? I don't find it annoying in any way or in any situation. :? There is no other mod that will give you more throttle response and power for the money spent. :wink: Yes, the CFM Tech blade is priced a little high, but it did fit nicely and I've had absolutely no problems with it in the past 65k + miles. :D I also believe that the restrictor (diffuser) is there for drivability reasons. Most manufacturers engineer their vehicles to be very smooth and driveable. To do this they use intake airflow restrictors (diffusers), very restrictive exhaust, and mushy trans settings. Personally, I like instant throttle response, more power, and crisp shifts. 8) That's just me though! :wink:

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Post by HenryJ »

crew cab sonoma wrote:... it is there to simply dampen the abrupt off idle response that such a large (72mm) TB has on a 4.3.

this is what i believe its really there for...
killian96ss wrote:...I also believe that the restrictor (diffuser) is there for drivability reasons...

Thanks for bringing that one up as well. I had forgotten that theory.
Of the three this one is the easiest for me to believe, although there may be a little bit of fact in the others as well.

I am not disappointed in mine, and will continue to use it.

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Post by crew cab sonoma »

Walt wrote:I wouldn't mind a bit better throttle response. May have to try this one :)
the problem with it is that it makes smooth take offs more tricky. the truck tends to "lurch" from a stop. on slick surfaces, it can induce wheel spin when you didnt intend to, very easily. once you are up to speed, its fine.
you learn to be very gentle with the throttle from a dead stop much of the time...

i actually put my shifter into "second gear" position, to take off in second gear, just to get a smoother takeoff....
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Post by Walt »

crew cab sonoma wrote:
Walt wrote:I wouldn't mind a bit better throttle response. May have to try this one :)
the problem with it is that it makes smooth take offs more tricky. the truck tends to "lurch" from a stop. on slick surfaces, it can induce wheel spin when you didnt intend to, very easily. once you are up to speed, its fine.
you learn to be very gentle with the throttle from a dead stop much of the time...

i actually put my shifter into "second gear" position, to take off in second gear, just to get a smoother takeoff....
My problem is that my takeoffs are way too smooth. :lol:
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

well.... cutting the TB damper off is your solution then... :D
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

i just read your other thread. sounds like you have other issues to iron out.

my truck has always had plenty of low end torque, even before the TB mod.
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Post by Walt »

Yea....I have other issues as well...but this might help in the mean time. Plus I'm running 31's, with intentions of going up to 32's, so better throttle response should help that a bit too.
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

it could help, maybe. but i would get the other issue(s) fixed first, then see if you feel it still needs better off idle response.
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Post by Walt »

crew cab sonoma wrote:it could help, maybe. but i would get the other issue(s) fixed first, then see if you feel it still needs better off idle response.
That be my plan :)
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Re: Throttle Blade Diffuser

Post by HenryJ »

HenryJ wrote:...I planned to try switching back to stock to better measure the difference, but the retention screws are way too tight to remove now. I broke a torx bit attempting to remove them last time.
Where there is a will , there is a way!
Carefully tapping the driver with a small hammer and steady pressure on the screws got them loose :woohoo:

The CFM throttle blade requires some sanding to fit and keep it from sticking.
Mine must have been just a little too tight , because I had a sticky spot just off idle. This became more noticeable when the bore needed a little cleaning. Rather annoying in stop and go city traffic :mad:
I finally took the time to pull it and sand it for clearance. Since it was out I decided to go back to the stock throttle blade with diffuser.

I like the throttle response of the CFM blade. We will see if I can tolerate the stock blade.

The CFM blade does offer increased throttle response off idle. In four low and in stop and go traffic it can be somewhat touchy though. Perhaps the sluggish stock blade will be tolerable? I wonder if I will lose some performance? There are those that dispute any gains. Again, time will tell :mg:

BTW, the EGR limiter is doing really well. Intake deposits are minimal. That mod still gets two thumbs up :thumb:

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Post by killian96ss »

I didn't have to sand my throttle blade to get it to fit right. :? All I did was tighten the 2 screws with the throttle blade closed. :wink: At first there was a very slight sticking point off idle, however within the first 100 miles the problem went away. :) There is no way I would go back to the stock throttle blade after using the high flow version. :wink: I love the throttle response and extra power. :D

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Post by HenryJ »

I am tempted to go back soon. The throttle feels really sluggish.
It takes noticeably more travel to get moving. It just feels like a grandma's car :(

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Post by 20Blazer00 »

HenryJ wrote:I am tempted to go back soon. The throttle feels really sluggish.
It takes noticeably more travel to get moving. It just feels like a grandma's car :(
If you don't want to go back to the CFM unit. If you can find a Cadillac Northstar TB the blade has no difuser and fits into our TB's just fine no need to sand it for clearance. Might only have to drill the hole that is in our blade for idle quaulity???
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Post by HenryJ »

The CFM blade is fine. The directions that came with it said there may be some light sanding needed for clearance. I just didn't do enough, I guess.

I wonder if the late model fullsize truck throttle blade would work? It has half the diffuser that ours has.

Neither is really an option for most since the cost of a used throttle body for parts would probably be too expensive.

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Post by crew cab sonoma »

just cut part, or all of the stock diffuser "cresent" off.
i picked up a used intake asy. off of Ebay a couple of years ago, for about $25 + shipping.
it still had the TB on it, with TPS and IAC on it, and it had the coil/ign. module too.

sometimes, you can find a good deal on a used complete TB for cheap, that you can clean up, modify, and just swap the entire TB out.

just make sure its a late (98-99-up, not sure what year exactly) TB, with the newer style linkage on the side. the earlier models had a slightly different design to them, that makes them hard to adapt to the late model throttle cable and/or cable bracket.

looking at them separately you might not notice the diffence, but put the two side by side, and the difference is easily seen...
Last edited by crew cab sonoma on Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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00 Sonoma Ext. Cab 4WD. front axle removed, Torsen diff. W4M pcm. 2.10 60ft. 9.64 @ 71.0 mph (1/8 mi.)[/size]
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Post by 20Blazer00 »

Well one of the yards I get to has a core section of engines that are not being resold and they sometimes have parts left on them. My friend found the Northstar TB on an engine there and walked away with it for $15. Just have to get in good with your local yard crew...know what they have and where the cheap stuff is...
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Post by HenryJ »

Running the stock throttle blade with the diffuser again is noticeably different. Getting up to speed does take longer. That is likely due to the need for increased pedal movement. The acceleration feels dulled requiring effort to make the vehicle move.
The transmission shifts differently as well. The shifts seem different. Maybe slightly better?
This may be due to the increased rotation of the throttle position sensor.
They seem to hold a little longer and at least for the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts, perhaps slightly firmer?
With the CFM blade the shifts almost seemed to shift too soon, like you were letting off the throttle, sometimes.
Also it seems to downshift sooner. Again likely due to throttle position sensor readings. It now seems to downshift , perhaps a little too soon for my tastes.

I do like the off throttle being a little less sensitive. I don't think the pros outweight the cons in this case. I like the performance feel and responsiveness the CFM blade offers.

It would be fun to test a partial diffuser throttle blade similar to the ones used on the V-8's. A stock blade with half the diffuser removed might be interesting.

There is still the fact that some have had the diffuser come loose and be swallowed by the engine. Using a blade without the diffuser is definitely a way to avoid that issue.

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Post by gocntry »

HenryJ wrote:There is still the fact that some have had the diffuser come loose and be swallowed by the engine.
:shock: Wow, I Bet That Doesn't Lead To A Happy Ending :!:
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Post by HenryJ »

I am back to the CFM throttle blade. It just feels right.

The slight sticking issue is gone after a little sanding at the tight spot. This helped the off idle "touchy" pedal.

The shifts are softer in the topend. Not bad, just softer.

I like the responsiveness. It doesn't seem like it takes as much effort to get it up to speed.

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Post by Snoman002 »

HJ, I assume you have adjusted the TPS for the proper setting. Might you be able to "advance" it a little to get the shifts back?
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Post by HenryJ »

Snoman002 wrote:HJ, I assume you have adjusted the TPS for the proper setting. Might you be able to "advance" it a little to get the shifts back?
Good thought! I thought about that too :D
I did fine tune the TPS. I also thought about adjusting it to compensate, but that is what was done when I tuned it to begin with. It is as far advanced as possible to have the correct idle position and full throttle.

I am not sure that any adjustment here would have a big effect on the situation. There is a huge difference in throttle position between the two. Under moderate driving conditions under acceleration I would estimate perhaps 10°-15° difference. I bet that the difference in throttle position could be programmed to compensate with LS1 Edit.

I am sure I could nail down these figures exactly using Autotap. I am not sure that will be needed though.

Years ago the high performance cars had some tricks. The Caprice had the exact same 396 that was offered in the Chevelles The cars were similar in weight, but marketed to different customers. One trick was to use different throttle return springs. If you felt like you had to really push on the accelerator, you felt like it was a hotrod I guess. The lighter throttle pressure was more comfortable and relaxed for the Caprice.

I tend to think we have a similar thing going here. The large diffuser tends to soften the throttle. The V-8s use a diffuser, but it is about half of ours. More powerful feeling, perhaps?

I think I will keep my eyes open for a blade to cut down. Not a priority since I really am happy with the way it drives unrestricted.

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Post by Snoman002 »

Hmmm, well thats to bad.

I was thinking of doing this mod to the Bravada, thats why I asked. Unfortunatly the shifts on this thing are already soft (probably due to the same thing as the throttle spring trick you speak of).

Guess I might want to invest in the Corvette servo before I start this mod.

Or maybe I should quit thinking of things to mod on the dang thing and fix all the problems :lol: .
[size=75][b]1991 GMC Sonoma Extended Cb[/b] - 4.3L Automatic, 2" BL, 31" BFG's.
[b]1992 Chevy T-10 Reg Cab[/b] - 4.3L 5spd, 3" Bl, 31" Mud Tires. Hooker long tube headers and true duals.
[b]1999 Oldsmobile Bravada[/b] - Wifes truck, all stock.[/size]
huntsman2002crew
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Post by huntsman2002crew »

I am new to this whole throttle body diffuser thing being that my last car was a 71 chevelle=carburation...so could someone give me a link or some info on what this mod does and a step by step on how and what is being removed?
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HenryJ
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Post by HenryJ »

The stock throttle body is on the left.

Image

the CFM throttle blade is on the right.

You can remove the two retaining screws with the throttle closed. The carefully open the throttle and remove the blade. This can be replaced with a CFM blade, or modify the stock blade by cutting down the diffuser.
I would not remove it completely. The holes for the rivets would have to be filled as well as reducing the hole for the idle passage. I have used a small cutoff tool to cut the diffuser off, leaving the flat part with the rivets and correct size idle passage intact. If the rivets are loose I would opt for another blade. There is a story of someones engine digesting the diffuser and developing some really bad indigestion afterward.

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Post by LonestarZ »

It may be more responsive but after reading this post that Mike Copeland made a while back, I would think twice about doing this mod.
[size=75]Dave

[url=http://www.zr2usa.com/members.php?a=member&id=545]2002 ZR2 5spd[/url][/size]
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Post by HenryJ »

I agree that it may have some influence on the mixing of EGR gasses. That is why I restricted them to the bare minimum. I disagree that it is there to compensate and direct the flow to the cylinders, compensating for a throttle body located forward. That just doesn't work for me after checking out the CPI V-8 diffuser.

It's purpose to smooth the throttle response is more plausible, IMO.

There have been many different opinions on this one. I respect Mr.Copelands opinion on this one, but disagree that it must be retained. The EGR system on the 2002-up engines is different and yet the diffuser remains?

CFM Tech throttle blade and Sonoma96's EGR limiter
HenryJ wrote:A quick summary: The throttle blade diffuser is there to aid in mixing the egr gasses and equally distribute them to the cylinders.

Without it there is the risk of leaning the front cylinders, or so I was told.

With the diffuser removed, or by adding the CFM throttle blade. There is definitely a noticeable difference in throttle response. It is instant throttle. Almost too touchy when it is in low range IMO.

I added the EGR limiter to reduce the amount of EGR gasses being introduced. It was explained that the system was over engineered by 70%. It took quite a while but I finally found the line where I have reduced it and no longer get the SES light. I am using two separate limiters, one at the LH exhaust manifold and Sonoma96's at the intake manifold.

Now that I have said all of this ...the limiter only applies to the 2001 Crew Cab. The EGR system was redesigned for 2002-up, or so I have been told. As I understand it the valve is inside the intake manifold or in the head? Anyway it is not on the front of the engine like the '96-2001 s-series.

Here is the limiter thread: EGR limiter

Steven is running the throttle blade too. check this thread from the old forum: Throttle blade
I have been running one for four years now. I have gone back and prefer the mod to stock.
The lean condition for which there were warnings does not exist. I use the spark plug condition as indicators. They are even and clean.

I researched this prior to the modification. Answers are everywhere, but nothing concrete. I am reminded of the throttle spring hotrod. The story goes that two cars were offered for test drive. The question was asked which had better performance. The one with an extra throttle return spring was selected as having increased performance. The effort to press the pedal and the snappy return was interpreted as it having better performance.
Our trucks were marketed to the soccer grandmas, so a smooth throttle performance makes sense. In low range the throttle needs to be very smooth since the drivetrain reacts quickly.

Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off", those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. In short, when given two equally valid explanations for a phenomenon, one should embrace the less complicated formulation.
To smooth throttle response is pretty simple. Mixing of gasses works too.

I do not believe that exhaustive research goes into optimum engine design. Yes there is some, but more than often they take what they have and make it work. Crisis management. If there is a problem , fix it. Changes are more likely to be made it the name of safety, or emission standards than performance and design perfection. I am sure you can all recite several examples. I can think of several.

Thinking twice about any mod is good advice. :thumb: Do your own research and do not rely on only one opinion. Weigh the results and information to make your own conclusion.

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
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Post by F9K9 »

Mike Copeland wrote:IMO, this is not a good modification. If you remove the piece you can increase the size of the opening, but it is possible to cause engine damage, or loose performance. Trust me, GM does not put then in to reduce power.
Mike's advice has been thrown about so often that one almost expects it to have arrived from some mountain and written on stone tablets. Mike is/was a GM engineer. What section of GM engineering did he work at? I suspect that he was from the 3rd door S/T door handle design section or perhaps the division that designed the "seat reclining handle". He is very careful not to bash GM and that makes me a little curious.

I, for one, do not think that "Mike" has all the answers. He is careful not to suggest why GM has this feature other, than to suggest that the sky will fall if, it is modified.

Mr Copeland puts his pants on the same way that I do and those that worship him have their right to do so. I choose to not worship him and that is also my right.

Just my 2¢ and another reason why I will never buy another new GM product.

Sorry
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

HenryJ wrote:I agree that it may have some influence on the mixing of EGR gasses. That is why I restricted them to the bare minimum. I disagree that it is there to compensate and direct the flow to the cylinders, compensating for a throttle body located forward. That just doesn't work for me after checking out the CPI V-8 diffuser.

It's purpose to smooth the throttle response is more plausible, IMO.

There have been many different opinions on this one. I respect Mr.Copelands opinion on this one, but disagree that it must be retained. The EGR system on the 2002-up engines is different and yet the diffuser remains?

Now that I have said all of this ...the limiter only applies to the 2001 Crew Cab. The EGR system was redesigned for 2002-up, or so I have been told. As I understand it the valve is inside the intake manifold or in the head? Anyway it is not on the front of the engine like the '96-2001 s-series.
you and i are in agreement on the diffuser.

the 02-later 4.3`s, at least in the S-series, have no EGR system.
the exhaust manifold is not drilled/tapped for the tube, and the intake manifold casting was revised to comepletely eliminate provisions for it.

some have claimed that the valve was relocated "internally" in the manifold, but i have inspected an 02-later manifold and vehicle, but i can assure you that it simply isnt there at all....
[size=75]Lee

01 Sonoma Crew Cab 2.21 60ft. 10.24 @ 66.5 mph (1/8mi.)(SOLD)
00 Sonoma Ext. Cab 4WD. front axle removed, Torsen diff. W4M pcm. 2.10 60ft. 9.64 @ 71.0 mph (1/8 mi.)[/size]
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Post by HenryJ »

crew cab sonoma wrote:...you and i are in agreement on the diffuser...
:mad: I guess I am going to have to find someone else to shine the light in the shadows for this one :lol:

I had not first hand inspected a manifold from the 2002-up 4.3L engines yet. That is why I was reluctant to talk about the EGR elimination. Thank you for clearing that up for us. I was sure the valve was gone, but unclear as to internal changes.

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
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Post by LonestarZ »

Now see this is good.. I post a comment.. someone gets a little ruffled, there are additional comments made and information is added that most of us did not know about.

Can we all just relax and have a beer or two in preparation for some playoff football this weekend. :D
[size=75]Dave

[url=http://www.zr2usa.com/members.php?a=member&id=545]2002 ZR2 5spd[/url][/size]
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Post by HenryJ »

LonestarZ wrote:Now see this is good.. I post a comment...there are additional comments made and information is added...
That is what it is all about :thumb:

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
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Post by F9K9 »

LonestarZ wrote:................Can we all just relax and have a beer or two in preparation for some playoff football this weekend. :D
What is football?
[size=75][b]"For those who have fought for it, [i][color=red]FR[/color][color=white]EE[/color][color=blue]DOM[/color][/i] has a taste that the protected will never know."
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Post by huntsman2002crew »

Thank you...i changed my mind about this mod
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

huntsman2002crew wrote:Thank you...i changed my mind about this mod
in favor of, or against it?
[size=75]Lee

01 Sonoma Crew Cab 2.21 60ft. 10.24 @ 66.5 mph (1/8mi.)(SOLD)
00 Sonoma Ext. Cab 4WD. front axle removed, Torsen diff. W4M pcm. 2.10 60ft. 9.64 @ 71.0 mph (1/8 mi.)[/size]
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Post by huntsman2002crew »

against it for now
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Post by crew cab sonoma »

huntsman2002crew wrote:against it for now
well, if you can find a used TB for cheap, cut the "cresent" portion of the diffuser off with a Dremel tool, clean it up good, and swap it out for your original TB... if you dont like it, you can easily switch back.
[size=75]Lee

01 Sonoma Crew Cab 2.21 60ft. 10.24 @ 66.5 mph (1/8mi.)(SOLD)
00 Sonoma Ext. Cab 4WD. front axle removed, Torsen diff. W4M pcm. 2.10 60ft. 9.64 @ 71.0 mph (1/8 mi.)[/size]