S-10 SAS Confusion .... is there hope of clarification ?

[Blaze One]

As we all know , the front ends are a weak point of the S10 platform . I have been looking at all the different options a person could pursue if they wanted to do a SAS . There are a ton of things to consider . Axles , springs , steering , driveshafts , mounting crossmembers .... this list goes on . And about a dozen different variations on those .

Now there is a point to my bable .

Is there such thing as a "how to" on SAS ? or even some sort of parts needed list ?

I doubt it .

I would like to begin gathering parts and learn the skills ( welding etc. ) in order to put a SFA in my Blazer .

Does anyone know of a documented install of a SFA in a S10 ? I know it is not easy , and that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it . believe me , this is only a dream for me right now so who knows what will become of it .
I just want to have all the knowledge i can when the time comes ( 1-2yrs is my goal )

If all goes well , there could even be a market for selling a "SAS kit " of somesort , just add your own axles kinda thing . I dunno . Call me crazy and to go away if i am outa my mind .

But it seems that many have spent just as much money on upgrading there stock IFS , that they could have done a Mild SAS ( nothin over 33-35" tires ) and was wondering if anyone else was out there thinking like me .

[coffeedrnkr]

There are an infinite amount of ways to set up a solid axle swap. none necessarily right or wrong but some are definately better than others.


when you start researching....start here:
http://forum.zr2.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb ... forum;f=60


if I was to do it all again I definately wouldn't have piddled around with trying to make the ifs work......I would go straight to the SAS.

I figure with the money I wasted on the ifs junk, I could have just saved my money and went to an offroad shop and have them build the SAS for me.


I'll get some more info up later when it isn't 5 oclock in the morning......

[kauaibuilt47]

s10extremist.org

wealth of info, just gotta seach a little

[border man]

Get in touch with Bubbaloo, he's in your neck of the woods (Vancouver), and he fabbed himself an SFA for his crew. He is a fabricator of many things.

[purduecrew]

does this apply to our trucks???

http://www.s10extremist.org/tech_articl ... en_s10.htm

[bubaloo1983]

a step by step list would be nice but requires alot of work from someone that has done one. I mean yah i could basically say type out the basics but there is so many things to consider and that you encounter along the way thats its hard to have it all on paper. alot is experimental. For instance when i stated the first part of getting my suspension choice togther i changed in the first minute i took a look after the ifs was gone. I was goin to go coils but noticed how much more work and cutting and welding was involved over leafs. so i changed and went leafs. but anyway to make a long story short the best way to learn is to do research and then eventually tackle the job

[kauaibuilt47]

I did 2 years worth of research, buying of parts, etc. Was gonna do most of the work myself but ran out of time. Ended dropping it off at a shop and it should be done sometime this coming week.

[quickbiker]

I did much research myself also. Was going to do it myself also. There is much to take into consideration. I really don't think there can be a step by step procedure. Everyone has such different "wants" when it comes to SFA conversions. I knew in my head exactly what I wanted, which was really what I could not find in any other conversion. The closest was Warn's truck when it had 35's, before the last huge conversion he did. but even then I wanted some things different that I know I couldn't live without. I'm sure there may be others that don't like what I had done, some like coil springs, I didn't want coils for many reasons. So, it takes alot, I mean alot of thinking about what you really want, cause you gotta live with it when it's done. I see alot of people do all kinda work to their rig, just to sale it afterwards. It's gotta make you think what's wrong with it? So, it takes lotsa thinking and planning.

[purduecrew]

so has anyone taken a coil spring axle, say like a rubicon axle and swapped it in? basically, did they use the control arms? That would be awesome IMO, i dont know if clearance wise however, it would be possible... any links, me look, no find.

[bubaloo1983]

jeep front ends wont work very well unless you custom build around the axle. thats kinda what i tried at first and gave up and went leaves

[quickbiker]

That axle has some week points, such as the outers are basically identical to the D30 outers. I've alse heard either the pinion or the ring gear is a bit weaker than the average D44 also. There are better choices and less expensive also. Mounts can be put on about any choice of axle. The only stock thing that was left on my front axle tube was the track bar mount. The leaf perches and shock mounts were welded on.

[kauaibuilt47]

Lot of guys on the extremist site use early bronco 44's w/ coils and ford radius arms. Looks like a good set-up and wouldve done it myself but got a sale price on leaf springs.

In all honesty, evaluate how youre gonna use your rig and what you want from it.

Right now Im not that hardcore into 4xing so I went w/ Dana 44's. I may upgrade later which would mean I wasted my money on the 44's, BUT the wife will inherit them in her TJ if I do.

Gotta determine what size of tires you wanna run and that'll help determine axle type/lift height/etc.

Gotta determine your driving style. If youre light on the gas then you can run 33's w/ a D30. If youre hard on the gas, jump rocks, have a lot of wheel hop, then you better be upgrading your axles.....

Theres a lot of variables, post up what you want to do with it, youre offroading style, what size tire, etc and you'll get some better answers. I started by posting what my plan was and how I was going to use my rig. At the end i asked for peoples comments on the planned set-up. Ive gone through, at a minimum, 10 different set-up plans. My rig is up on its legs (out of the shop for a week) and Im still changing my plans. Truck is going under the knife AGAIN this weekend for a trac-bar, cut and turn knuckles, and possibly new front springs (too low a spring rate on current ones).

[purduecrew]

so in other words, trying to mount the following up, would be next to, if not impossible??

ebay link

link't long url -HJ <----on the ball

what would I EVER DO?

i would go down and drive through creek beds, back fields, woods, snow...i WOULD NEVER go over a 33x11.50 on this truck. Honestly, the top of the fender lip is currently at 33 inches. I want this baby to be at about 36 to 40 inches all said and done. NO I DONT WANT A BL. Ive already cranked the tbars and spent 200 bucks on halfshafts. I got the back where i want it almost with the Boise kit, BUT shackles can make up any difference. I just cant get the front end up high enough without a SL. And on that note, i told myself no SAS cuz i would cut the truck too much, but after reading the BDS install instructions, it talks about sawin on the differential, screw that! Might as well go with a nice d30 under the front that really performs for what i need, but is bombproof basically cuz i would run small tires, in mud, and not be baja racing this darn thing.

[quickbiker]

Nothing is impossible if you have the time and patience. One thing I can see by looking that will be a problem is the mount over the punkin unless you are planning on massive lift. The pitman arm will be in the way. Also depends on what pitman arm you use also. Best way is to just cut everything off the axle tube and weld mounts as you need them.

[purduecrew]

thats a good point about that upper control arm mount...hmmmmm...all kinds of time to think...i just dont like things hanging out from underneath the truck, such as spindly axles, leaf brackets and what not, not that i DONT like them, just not on THIS truck...

[kauaibuilt47]

http://www.s10extremist.org/sfa_rigs.htm

Check these rigs out.

[coffeedrnkr]

if you are worried about cutting a little bracket off of the front diff you are not ready for a sas

once you take the dive it takes a lot of work, research, dedication, maintanance, troubleshooting, and money.


I ran a d30 daily driven and wheeled for 2 years on my blazer and I would not do it again. I am sorry to be negative but I didn't believe anybody else when they told me to not do it but I did anyways and it cost me a lot more troubles and money than I would have had if I had just started out with a d44 or d60. I don't care how light you are planning on wheeling it or even not wheeling it at all, it is just plain inconvenient not being able to disconnect the hubs b/c unless your driveshaft angle is perfect and you have it balanced and set up correctly you will probalby get vibration.

it really isn't that much more expensive for a d44, besides the initial cost of the axle everything else pretty much costs the same when you are rebuilding it no matter what axle you have such as ball joints, u-joints, steering, gears, lockers and so on. Also when you are adding it up count in the 140 dollar a peice wheel bearings for the d30, when the d44 bearings and seals total maybe 25 bucks per side, and you can get warn premium manual hubs as a set for 75 bux.

The biggest problem I had with the d30 is the lack of manual hubs. I always throught no big deal right? wrong. I couldn't keep my front driveshaft in on the street at all b/c it would vibrate like a mofo over 35 and guess what there is no way to disconnect it from the tires to make the driveshaft stop spinning. Now that I have manual hubs I would never go back.

with my d44 I have broken two u-joints already and you know what I do?? I unlock the hubs and drive off the trail, it is that simple. back when I had the d30 every time I broke something I had to stop and get out all of my tools no matter where I was and get that shaft out of there so it wouldn't completely destroy itself and bind my steering, or clank around on my way home.

sounds like I am being whiny and maybe I am but I definately have learned all of this stuff the hard way and would like to save somebody some trouble.

[purduecrew]

if you are worried about cutting a little bracket off of the front diff you are not ready for a sas

oh no, im not worried about the work ITSELF, i just told myself I wouldnt butcher my truck. SO therefore, if a simple IFS lift is gonna butcher it, then might as well go all out

BUT THAT ABOVE IS THE TYPE OF STUFF THAT DOES help everyone else out...that brings up another topic. If I were to ever do this, I would want the 4wd to engage with the factory pushbuttons like it is now...I dont want to have to get out of my truck and unlock/lock any hubs, driveshafts, w/e...is this possible? Besides I thought It was all in the transfer case anyway?!? I wouldnt want or need a locker in the front ya know?

[kauaibuilt47]

the stock s10 has a 2 piece axle shaft. a collar is engaged when you activate 4wd that locks those 2 pieces together.

a D44 is gonna have manual locking hubs. youre gonna have to get out and lock/unlock.

a D30 is gonna have auto hubs that you dont have to manually engage.

problem is that if you snap a shaft youre gonna have to take that D30 apart on the trail, the 44 you can just unlock the hub.

D44 hub is cheap and easy to replace if it breaks. you can carry drive slugs on trail just in case. a D30 is gonna be expensive to replace and theres no quick fixes.

I, personally, dont like the electric t-case because you never know if its locked or not until its too late. i enjoy the manual - i know this bad boy is in - case.

[coffeedrnkr]

if you are worried about cutting a little bracket off of the front diff you are not ready for a sas

oh no, im not worried about the work ITSELF, i just told myself I wouldnt butcher my truck. SO therefore, if a simple IFS lift is gonna butcher it, then might as well go all out

there is a HUGE difference between cutting a bracket off / modding some stuff and doing a SAS


SAS =

link't over 100k limit image-HJ

I cant emphasize how many hours I have put into this truck. When you are staring at a bare set of frame rails it is a LOT of work and thinking and testing.

Now if this were a toyota that had pretty much complete sas kits that just weld on and give you directions on where and how to mount everything and what parts to use it would be a little different.

When the truck was at the point in the picture I had no directions, no color pictures on what to do, and no list of what parts to use. I had to design and make all of the stuff myself, and believe me it is NOT an easy thing to do especially for a guy in his driveway. over the last 4 or so years I have built up a pretty good collection of tools but there are still stuff that I wish I had that would make this soo much easier.

If you are trying to do this yourself and are starting out without any tools, you would have to add into your budget at minimum 1500 bucks for a welder/gas, chop saw, grinders, sawzall, torch, vice, press, angle finder, metal to build it, and I could go on for a while on stuff you will need to do a project like this. Then after that you have to teach yourself how to use all of it.


On a last note, is it really that hard to walk to the front of your truck and turn two dials with your hand??

[purduecrew]

On a last note, is it really that hard to walk to the front of your truck and turn two dials with your hand??

would, "being lazy" be a bad answer when i would actually consider doing a sfa???

haha only tools i dont have would be a welder, BUT a buddies got one i can use free at any time

BUT if there was a "Top Gun" sawzall school, i would be maverick, no doubt

i know you guys dont believe me, but i love just being in open country, i like pretty paint and the likes, i dont really enjoy beating the living hell out of this truck, its like my "capable transportation" if ya know what im saying

but seriously,i mean theres nothing wrong inherently in my eyes with a d44, i just want something that is like "oh looks like some deep drifts across the road ahead, better put it in four hi..." ya know what im saying? not "oh looks like the grand canyon ahead, better lock in my 49" d60 detroit air locking coil over mega travel suspension axle...."

but like you all have said, you all ignored others too, and regretted it...but then again, look at all these trucks buried to their doors in mud too...

[quickbiker]

if you are worried about cutting a little bracket off of the front diff you are not ready for a sas

once you take the dive it takes a lot of work, research, dedication, maintanance, troubleshooting, and money.


I ran a d30 daily driven and wheeled for 2 years on my blazer and I would not do it again. I am sorry to be negative but I didn't believe anybody else when they told me to not do it but I did anyways and it cost me a lot more troubles and money than I would have had if I had just started out with a d44 or d60. I don't care how light you are planning on wheeling it or even not wheeling it at all, it is just plain inconvenient not being able to disconnect the hubs b/c unless your driveshaft angle is perfect and you have it balanced and set up correctly you will probalby get vibration.

it really isn't that much more expensive for a d44, besides the initial cost of the axle everything else pretty much costs the same when you are rebuilding it no matter what axle you have such as ball joints, u-joints, steering, gears, lockers and so on. Also when you are adding it up count in the 140 dollar a peice wheel bearings for the d30, when the d44 bearings and seals total maybe 25 bucks per side, and you can get warn premium manual hubs as a set for 75 bux.

The biggest problem I had with the d30 is the lack of manual hubs. I always throught no big deal right? wrong. I couldn't keep my front driveshaft in on the street at all b/c it would vibrate like a mofo over 35 and guess what there is no way to disconnect it from the tires to make the driveshaft stop spinning. Now that I have manual hubs I would never go back.

with my d44 I have broken two u-joints already and you know what I do?? I unlock the hubs and drive off the trail, it is that simple. back when I had the d30 every time I broke something I had to stop and get out all of my tools no matter where I was and get that shaft out of there so it wouldn't completely destroy itself and bind my steering, or clank around on my way home.

sounds like I am being whiny and maybe I am but I definately have learned all of this stuff the hard way and would like to save somebody some trouble.

Well put, Coffee. Listen to this man. That's what we are echo'n here. Gotta do research, know exactly what you want, and even then, it does no good if you don't get it together the right way. So if anyone is thinking about SAS, be ready for allot of patience and time. Better have a backup daily driver.

[quickbiker]

oh no, im not worried about the work ITSELF, i just told myself I wouldnt butcher my truck. SO therefore, if a simple IFS lift is gonna butcher it, then might as well go all out

BUT THAT ABOVE IS THE TYPE OF STUFF THAT DOES help everyone else out...that brings up another topic. If I were to ever do this, I would want the 4wd to engage with the factory pushbuttons like it is now...I dont want to have to get out of my truck and unlock/lock any hubs, driveshafts, w/e...is this possible? Besides I thought It was all in the transfer case anyway?!? I wouldnt want or need a locker in the front ya know?

Just from what you explain, I really don't think SFA is right in your case. As Coffee points out, and IMO, front manual hubs are a must. Since my truck was done, it took me a year to get my front drive shaft set up the right way, with 2 returns and going with a different fab. Now, my front drive shaft will finally turn any highway speed, but still, I couldn't imagine spinning all that for nothing when I am using it as a daily driver.

Also, it's a good idea to do much research on the mechanics of various drive train setups, it's worth the research, no matter how long it takes to understand it. I use my factory push button setup, but that is now only controlling the tcase front output, the orginal vacum disconnect for the original front vaccuum disconnect has been disposed of and is plugged. So now, to get the whole thing disconnected, I have manual hubs on each front wheel, which is even better, cause it discnnects everything, not just half the axle.

Anyhow, I think from what I read, if you just do light wheeling and don't want to mess with things, just stick with proven IFS lifts. There is nothing wrong with them and work great for most people.

[quickbiker]

Hey Coffeedrnker, how did you bust your front u-joints? Some are supprised I haven't broke mine yet, but I think I drive it a bit carefull. I only lock up my front if the wheels are straight and unlock them if I gotta turn them. Seems like when I've seen them break, it's always in a bind in a turn. I've only seen Rubi's break. That's how I know they have D30 outers, cause they borrowed someone that had a Cherokee with D30's and did a trail fix. Really sucks that Rubi's don't have hub disconnects, just doesn't make any sense.

And when did you get your D44's? What axle you use? Always interesting finding out what axle people used. People are always suprised to find out my rear D44 is from an Isuzu Rodeo. But it makes perfect sense. I knew I wanted D44's, but the axle knowledge from independent4x was great when he selected it.

[coffeedrnkr]

i know you guys dont believe me, but i love just being in open country, i like pretty paint and the likes, i dont really enjoy beating the living hell out of this truck, its like my "capable transportation" if ya know what im saying

there is your first problem, when you do go through with a SAS you do it because you WANT to beat the crap out of your truck b/c if you don't then there is absolutely no point in doing it b/c you won't break the ifs if you don't get stupid.

Point number 2, you definately just used the words "capable transportation" in relation to a completely non stock totally modded truck. When you do the SAS it becomes a TOY, it is no longer a daily driver dependable grocery getter. not knockin on the sas'ed trucks that still daily drive b/c I daily drove mine for 2 years before I got a second truck. The problem is when you daily drive a big lifted truck like this it is a lot of added wear and tear, mainenance and trouble. It is no longer just your little geo prism you can just jump in and go. When you drive it so much it needs to be lubed regularly, make sure all bolts are tight regularly, it is harder to drive, more body roll, and not as safe.

i just want something that is like "oh looks like some deep drifts across the road ahead, better put it in four hi..."

You just described pretty much what your truck is right now. Stock s10's will do a lot, I know that for sure b/c that's how I started out too. for most people a small lift, some 31's and maybe even a rear locker would get them through more than they would ever want.

[coffeedrnkr]

Quckbiker, I have been doing the next stage of buildup over the last two months.

I used a High pinion HD d44 off of a 79 f250 and a rear HD d60 also off an f250.

I have an aussie locker in the front and can't unlock it at will so with the weight, power, and crawl ratio of my truck I am either goin up or breakin something.

I have a big buildup thread here: http://www.zr2usa.com/mboard/index.php?showtopic=6361

[Snoman002]

My $.02, and really thats allot more than it's worth.

Purduecrew, I really think that you need to see some threads of what a S-Series is capable of. Heck, just look at HeneryJ and what he has done to his truck and what it can do.
I can't remember the username (sorry), but there is a person around here with a ZR2 Blazer running TSL's and home made disconnects who has gone some amazing places with his truck.


Before you decide to go crazy with your truck I would find out just what it is capable of first.

And finally, I know you have to chop some stuff off to put an IFS lift on, but thats NOTHING like what putting a solid axle under your truck would be like. Take into account though that I have NOT done a SAS swap, just picked up on a few things here and there.

[kermit]

i just want something that is like "oh looks like some deep drifts across the road ahead, better put it in four hi..."

You just described pretty much what your truck is right now. Stock s10's will do a lot, I know that for sure b/c that's how I started out too. for most people a small lift, some 31's and maybe even a rear locker would get them through more than they would ever want.

I second that remark. I know you have already stated that you are against a body lift and cutting the truck up. I was too at first. BUT for less than $1500 I am running 33" tires! And I love it! THE MARVELOUS MYSTERY LIFT IS WORTH THE CONSIDERATION.

[WVHogRider]

I third that remark. The S-10, even stock, can do a lot. About 4 years(?) ago in the blizzard that crippled the northeast, I was the only one able to get out of the lane with the CC for a day & a 1/2, (or I was the only one until there were a set of tracks made for others). The snow varied due to wind, but I think the average was 2-3 feet. The CC was bone stock. I may even have pictures, ( let me know and I'll look but they will need scanned & then downloaded). After seeing me in the CC, a guy with a full size FORD, from the other side of the subdivision tried & got stuck until he dug the snow out from under him. I'm not sure of his tire tread or weight distribution, as I was busy taking neighbors to the closest open store in the area. I had extra weight in the bed, (snow). I want a lift too, but the MARVELOUS MYSTERY LIFT looks the best for my needs/budget/effectiveness.

[purduecrew]

dang, wheres my rock??? i better just go crawl back under it!

No really though, this is awesome feedback guys. You are right, I dont NEED a SFA, it just sounds cool, and performs well too, but capable transportation is prolly outta the question with this modification. I know just today i took the truck back through some woods, bean fields, and creek beds, and the 6-8 inches of mud from all the heavy rains and I did make it through! I was happy, so maybe I should just consider that a blessing. It does ride quite nice as it is, it would be a shame to destroy that. Basically, anyone who does SFA is looking for an offroad monster then? Not as any form of dependable daily driver...

[F9K9]

..........................I can't remember the username (sorry), but there is a person around here with a ZR2 Blazer running TSL's and home made disconnects who has gone some amazing places with his truck.........

That would be Muslhed. aka Jeremy, a good pic of what IFS can do. That is exactly why I am leaving my rig alone for now. I bought a nice stock XJ to play with for $1500, that has a SFA. I have done a lot of reading and researching them and if things go right, I'll have it sold and another one this time next week. I found one that I wheeled with (I was impressed with it) for $2500.



It has more than $2500 in suspension, body mods and tires and wheels. It could be a DD if, I wanted it to be. It does need the rear main seal replaced but, from I have have read it takes most people 6 hrs to do so, I guess it will take me 24 hrs.

IIRC Quickbiker/Paul said he had well over 10K in this SFA, Paul's is the finest SFAed DD that I have seen but, it doesn't take me long to do the math. Just another alternative to confuse you

[quickbiker]

I don't think I ever said what I paid for it, but also I didn't just do a front axle conversion. I did a complete front to back re-work of it. There is alot of custom stuff done in addition to the front axle conversion. I also got the rear axle replaced, chopped up the front and rear of the body for front/rear approach/departure angles, tucked in tubing for front/rear bumpers, tire carrier, lockers, high cross-over steering, custom tranny and cross members, winch mount, the list goes on, too much to list in a spec page. I got to a point of not listing anything, cause it just gets to a point where it's pointless to list anything, it's just an awsome custom wheeler. Point is, that if all ya want is a front axle swap, it really doesn't have to cost much, I just did it all in one shot, and more than the average axle swap all at once.

[F9K9]

Thanks for the clarification, Paul. I should have mentioned all the custom work (that I was aware of) performed on your CC.

[DutchBiker42]

100% WRONG! I have a cc daily driver SAS. Not a toy, it gets groceries too. The s10 IFS is total junk, cranking the t-bars is a HUGE mistake. But, you'll just have to see how it sucks for yourself.