Dead in the water * solved (loose bolts)

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:44 am

Today it was 110 degrees. Coming down I 35 from the vet, where we had to take one of our australian sheppards due to eating rat poison and almost died. As we were getting off the Interstate, the truck sounds like the fan was rubbing the fan shroud. Then it went away.

A few blocks down the street, it died altogether. Wouldn't restart. Then the battery went dead, then it did have a little life in it and got LOC on the radio. Called the auto club. Walked about 1.5 miles home and got the wife's car to transfer the passengers into the car so they could go home and I would wait for the auto club. Tried to jump start the truck. No good. Wouldn't even turn over. Suspected a bad battery, cables or bad alternator.

The AC clutch was disengaged and checked the tension on the serpentine belt. So tight I could not even turn it by hand.

Checked the fan blades for problems along with the shroud and found none.

I assume that the initial noise was from the bearings or brushes in the alternator, then when it died and would not restart, I then assume that now the alternator is froze up and that is what is causing the belt not to turn.

The shop I use got started on it Friday afternoon, but close at 5pm. Won't know anything now til Monday.

Any of you guys have any thoughts of what could be wrong??

TIA

Bill

raven2510 · Post by **raven2510** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:35 pm

Well you really shouldn't be able to move the belt if its tensioned right. The crank pulley has alot of compression....its hard to turn. And jumping it should at least get it started.
Do you have any power to anything? If no, you might check the mega fuse under the battery tray.

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:04 pm

Could very well be the alternator. A couple years ago I had a similar experience with a car of mine. Stopped to put mail in a box and the engine died and would not crank. Took the belt off and started right up. Bearings went out in the alternator to the point the rotor locked up on the stator ring causing both the stall and no start problem. Reman alternator and new belt and problem solved in my case. In your case if the alternator had stopped charging properly ahead of a failure of this type you could have had a dead battery in addition to the stuck alternator.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:56 pm

Maybe a bad battery and alternator?

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm

With the belt off, the engine should start with a jump since the other vehicle is supplying all the power. It should start even of the battery is dead as well. Make sure all of the fuses are ok. If It doesnt turn over or start then obviously something else is wrong.

Steve

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:09 pm

Those are all of my thoughts exactly. With the temp being 100+ daily and no cool place to work. Along with my work schedule, which is the night shift, the best alternative I have is to have my repair place do the job. I know that is will be kind of expensive but it would be worth it due to my current situation.

Hope to hear something on Monday. I am off on Tuesday and Wednesday so I will probably pick it up then.

Also planned on doing the heater valve mod as described in the Modification section, but due to this, it has now been put on hold.

TIA

Bill

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:21 pm

Found out today that the engine seized up. They used an extremely large torque wrench to move the flywheel and it only moved about 3 inches and that was it.

They too thought by the symptoms that it was the alternator. It wasn't. They are going to have to swap the engine. Interesting thing, it was only one half quart of oil low and clean. No leaks, no loss of coolant, nothing.

Any ideas on a price for this?? I am thinking of having new plugs, serpentine belt put on before they put the new one in and the fan clutch from my motor since it is almost brand new.

Any other thoughts or suggestions????

As the old song goes " If it wasn't for bad luck I would have no luck at all."

TIA

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:23 pm

okaussie wrote:...Any ideas on a price for this??

I'll guess about $3k

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:43 pm

I thought around $2k. According to my research the truck is worth about $6k. With 150K miles on it they are going to try to find an engine with considerably less miles on it for the swap. They do alot of these so I am confident I will get a good deal.

More news as it becomes available, film at 11.

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:53 pm

Installing a used engine, your estimate is probably closer to right. Kind of a bummer. Might consider a new improved set of intake gaskets and a new crank seal before you install a used engine.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:54 pm

Don't have any idea if a brand new one is even available. Good idea on the gaskets and seals. That's all I would need is to put one in and have oil and water leaks everywhere.

Thought I would try and get as much rebuilt as I could before it gets installed. Maybe this will avoid problems down the road.

Bill

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:23 am

What about a 350 ?

Post by **HenryJ** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:51 am

okaussie wrote:Don't have any idea if a brand new one is even available.

It has been a while since I checked last, but the GM Goodwrench crate engine 4.3L was right around $2100 IIRC. I see them listed on the web for about $500 more so that is probably close.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:36 am

I went to the shop this morning and got the news. Just a little under $2k . Everything they found had at least 130K miles on them, Not good. They did find one with 80K. They are going to use that one and take the best of both. They are going to put in new spark plugs, serpentine belt and anything else it needs. Said it would take about 5 days to get it done. Labor here is $78.00/hour so that ate up almost $1000 of the cost. The cost of rebuilding mine was around $3500. And that is without even looking at it.

This engine is $850.

I feel like that is a fair price.

Let you know how it goes..

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:54 am

Sounds good. Keep us up to date on progress.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:57 am

Why would the motor seize up if its full of oil and coolant? Did the oil pump or water pump somehow suddenly fail or seize up? Something doesn't seem right! Is there anything wrong with the transmission like a stuck converter or serious internal damage? Did they remove the belt before trying to turn the engine? Did they remove the valve covers and inspect the valvetrain for damage? Make sure that engine toast before you get another one, and ask to see the part that made it seize up!

Steve

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:26 pm

They won't really know til they take it out. The Tranny was rebuilt last year by a guy that only works on the 4L60E Transmissions. At that time he had seen only one other CrewCab. The water pump replaced about 4 years ago. The oil pump has never been replaced. They did remove the serpentine belt and tried to start it. Wouldn't start. They took a long torque wrench to the crank and was able to turn it slightly with alot of force, then they couldn't move it any more. That removed the alternator and starter from the equation. Don't know if they pulled the valve covers.
And yes I will ask to see the defective parts.

I did change the radiator about a month ago due to a crack in the plastic on the upper driver's side corner, Also put on new hoses when I did it.

Never used any coolant. Also, never has used any oil. Have run synthetic oil since I purchased it new in 2002.

More news when I know more..

Bill

04crewvt · Post by **04crewvt** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:19 am

I had a Jasper remanufactured engine put in mine at 63K due to a main bearing failure,
probably due to coolant from lower intake getting into the motor. Having the job done at the dealership (cheapest quote I got) was right about $3800 out the door.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:03 am

Mine has around 150K on it so I figured it was about time. Went by the shop yesterday and they told me they got the other engine and it looks to be in pretty good shape. I will trading up from 150K to 80K plus having some of it replaced anyway so it should be good.
I am looking at picking it up next Friday. Money permits. The told me that they have 3 engine rebuilds ahead of me and I am not in a big hurry since I can drive my wife's car. I want them to take their time and do a good job.

In the last two years I have had the tranny rebuilt and now this. Outside of regular maintenance the only other thing replaced was the radiator about 2 months ago for a crack in the plastic.

That 's about it. Should know more next week..

Bill

Horsehammerr · Post by **Horsehammerr** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:05 am

159000: replaced Brake pads, Tires, Battery, Alternator, Idler arm and Pittman arm.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:46 am

Went by the shop this morning and got the word. What really happened was a bolt in the transmission pump that holds on the housing around the torque converter had worked itself out to a point that is was scoring the torque converter then finally locked up the motor. Saw the scoring and the defective bolt. The Fan sound I heard was the bolt scoring the torque converter. When the engine was taken out and the oil pan dropped, no metal was found in the oil, so they in turn took off the timing chain cover. Nothing wrong there either. So I went to the tranny shop and told him to call the auto shop and talk with them on how to fix this issue. The tranny job was warrantied for 30K or 3 years. It was done in March of 2010.

The engine does need some work, new intake manifold gaskets and one motor mount for sure.

More news as it becomes available.

Bill

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:12 am

Like I said above, I really didnt think there was anything wrong with the motor, and I did suspect something with the transmission. The funny thing is that I have had the same thing happen on my SS which also has the 4L60E, except that I caught it before it did too much damage. There are people in our Impala club who have had the same thing happen with bad results like you. Now that I think about it I also had a pump bolt come out on an older TH400 transmission in an older Impala. Sounds like GM should have used pump bolts with safety wire which would prevent them from falling out!

Steve

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:59 am

I agree. The shop told me that they have never seen this happen before. The tranny guy wanted me to have the truck brought to him so he could look at it. Told him that could not happen since the engine is out. He sounded kind of reluctant to believe that this was the case. So I think he is balking at paying my shop to fix a tranny failure.

I think this would be the way to go. The shop already has the engine out, why not go ahead and replace the torque converter and that bolt and just send that part of the bill to the tranny guy and me just pay for the work done to the engine.

That sounds fair and the easiest thing to do..

Bill

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:54 pm

If the shop doesn't take some pictures of the damage then make sure that you do just in case! I've been in a few situations like this that appeared to be going nowhere, however all them them were resolved because nobody wants to go to court or be labeled by the BBB as having problems with their customers! Send the tranny guy pictures of the bolt and resulting damage and I'll bet it will all be worked out. If not I think you know what to do next!

Steve

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:42 pm

Worked on a lot of trannys in my days but have never seen or heard of this one before. Sounds like a bolt got missed on final torque-down or proper torque limits were not used. Just my opinion given the facts written here. Confirms my doubts as to the engine being at fault in the early stages of this post as well.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:19 am

Talked with my mechanic this morning. He talked with the tranny guy yesterday. Bottom line no charge for that part of the labor and the tranny guy is going to deliver today a brand new torque converter with all the hardware. No Charge.

The mechanic is going to replace the spark plugs, serpentine belt, intake manifold gaskets, rear seal, oil pan seal, oil filter, replace all the fluids. Should have it back on Friday afternoon after I get out of class.

Took pics of the damage so when I get them loaded on my computer I will attempt to put them on here so you all can see what happened.

Bill

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:23 pm

Glad to hear it is all being taken care of!

Steve

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:43 pm

This is what it looks like. The tranny guy got the wrong converter and is suppose to deliver the right one this afternoon including all the hardware. It is supposed to be completed sometime Friday.

This is my first time posting photos so I am sorry if there are any problems.

Live and learn..

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:26 pm

You can sure see the intake leaks. I don't see the bolt or TC damage though.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:22 pm

There was scoring around the outside edge at the top and some indentations on the face.

I did see the bolt that did the damage but when I took the photos I couldn't find it. It is pretty rough on the outside of the TC.

We will see how she runs when I get it back. The wife says that she thought it has always had a problem since the tranny was rebuilt. She said that if felt like it was not shifting smooth enough like it use to. Don't know about that but you know women's intuition.

Let you all know when I get it back and how it runs..

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:49 pm

Ah, I see. The bolt came out and wedged into one of the raised sections on the TC. Must have made horrible noises. That would indeed be a tough one to diagnose.
Sounds like you are in good hands.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:23 pm

As I reported in my first post. When Getting off Interstate 35 I heard, what sounded like the fan hitting the shroud around the radiator. It sped up and down with the engine. Then all of the sudden it quit. Drove it for about 2 blocks and the engine locked up, died, and wouldn't restart. Had to walk 1.5 miles home in 110 degree heat to get the wife's car to transfer her and the two aussies so she could get in where it was cool.

Bad day in the neighborhood.

Bill

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:09 pm

Found out this morning that the tranny guy did not deliver the TC and bolts until late yesterday. Therefore my truck will not be ready until sometime late Monday.

Let you all know when it is down and how things are..

Bill

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:18 pm

Update today:

Truck had one bad cell in the battery. Got a replacement for free. Found that the 2-3 clutch had burnt up and won't shift into first gear when you stop.

It is now at the tranny guys shop to have the tranny rebuilt again. Had it originally done in March of 2010.

As far as the engine goes, runs like brand new. Also got the bad bolts from the tranny.

Will take pics and show you all what started this mess,,hopefully tomorrow.

Don't know when the truck will get done. Hope tomorrow.

Bill

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:24 pm

Here we go guys. This is what happened.

Two of the bolts of the front pump went bad. One broke and locked up the torque converter and another bolt stretched. This all caused the planet to be out of position with everything else behind it causing the 3-4 clutch to burn out and generally screw up the entire transmission. I think during all of this it also broke the motor mounts due to the torque applied by the engine to the locked up torque converter.

The tranny got rebuilt again, only after being rebuilt the first time in March of 2010. Then engine got new motor mounts, timing cover, intake manifold gaskets, serpentine belt, spark plugs, oil pan gasket, oil cooler gasket, new anti freeze, oil, oil filter. Cost me $2033.79 for all the engine work and the tranny problem cost me nothing since it was under warranty. Also had to get a new battery, due to a bad cell in it because of the hot weather we have. They have a hard time keeping batteries here due to the extreme heat. It was only two years old and now won't hold a charge.

Going to test drive it to work now that I have it back. Working 6 days in a row. All highway miles so we will see how she runs.

I have attached pic of the bolts for your enjoyment.

Unless something new appears, we can probably close this topic..

thanks for all of your help..

Bill

rlrnr53 · Post by **rlrnr53** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:12 am

I experienced similar problems on a 76 Nova. After droping the flywheel pan, I found all 3 bolts loose and wore almost in half. Replaced bolts wth Loctite, problem solved.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:44 am

Been driving it now for a week. the only problem has been that the insulation around the A/C evaporator cover got on the exhaust manifold and smoked and smelled like I was burning oil. Took it back, they found it removed it and the odor and smoke went away.

All is well. Now I can concentrate on all of the mods that needs to been done.

Happy Trucking,,

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:43 am

Thanks for the update!

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:30 pm

Found other problems related to this subject.

1. When the tranny was put back in, they missed the two nuts and washers that bolt the transmission to the frame and.

2. Look at this? How did this happen???

TIA

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:48 pm

Kinda sloppy work. Get a couple nuts and both the trnasmission down.
One of those bolts probably broke that piece out of the bellhousing. I wouldn't be too worried about that missing piece. Earlier models did not have a lower half and used a dust shield.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:22 pm

How in the world did they break a piece of the bellhousing off? Did they do this when the motor was taken out? Maybe they used a jack or something under that spot?

Steve

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:35 pm

I thought it was interesting that the hole in the bell housing was round at one point. Does look like something round was put against it.

How should I repair it? I will add the correct nuts and washers.

The reason I was under there was troubleshooting a vacuum leak that I think was coming from the vacuum line from the reservoir to the transfer case switch. Then I saw this.

Will work on the vacuum leak at another time.

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:56 pm

Maybe the piece broke out when the bolt wedged against the flywheel?

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:50 pm

If it was due by anything, shouldn't the tranny guy have found it and fixed it??

Any way to repair the bell housing without taking it apart again??

Bill

BTW: what is the size of nut for the other problem and the torque??

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:01 pm

I think they did fix the problem. The bolts. The bellhousing can not be repaired without removal and replacement. Don't sweat it. The piece that is broken is not that important.

I don't recall the nut size. Those flange nuts should be easy to locate. Ask your local salvage yard, or better yet, the guys that did the transmission work and lost them.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:31 pm

I am going to find something to cover the hole up. We have all extremes of weather here and all kinds of road conditions so I don't want anything to get in there that shouldn't be there already.

Oklahoma now has the worst roads in the country surpassing Pennsylvania so I don't want any more problems.

I will go to junk yard and try to find those nuts.

Thanks,,

Bill

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:36 pm

I wouldn't worry about the "hole". I've run 4x4 offroad with out a dust shield and survived much more than you will ever put this truck through. If you are worried, start gathering up shields. That oil pan hanging out there naked makes me nervous.

okaussie · Post by **okaussie** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:22 am

This is purely stock. I bought this truck brand new in 2002. It is a one owner. I will trust your judgement but maybe a skid plate will make me feel better.

I am going to the junk yard today to see if I can find the right nuts.

Maybe next time I am off I will tackle the 4wd issue.

Thanks Henry..

Bill