Anti seize Equivalent for Heater and Radiator Hoses?

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:30 am

Moved to stock drivetrain-HJ

I know that I ran across, or what was touted as, a product to eliminate the problems of hoses stuck to metal and plastic attachment points. I didn't bookmark it and can not relocate it now. I recently broke the plastic heater control valve on my Heep while I was changing plugs. I figured that I'd replace all hoses while I was replacing the control valve and eliminate future problems. It is particularly difficult to separate hoses from plastic in the heep.
Does anyone have a suggestion or a clue about I am referring to? I have all the parts here and just want to get it back together with ease of replacement , in mind, for next time.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:09 am

A thin layer of o-ring grease works pretty good!

I use a product called Sil-Glyde on my o-rings and hose connections.

It is best to use a grease that won't eat up rubber, however I have heard of people using regular chassis grease with no problems.

Steve

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:23 am

I've learned a lot from you and Brule but, somehow I have misplaced or never had, nor heard of "O-ring" grease. At 161K, I think that I will just go "bare back" but, I do recall seeing a product that addresses this particular concern. Thanks for the info Steve

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:54 pm

Electrical "silicone" grease works good also!

Steve

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:56 am

killian96ss wrote:Electrical "silicone" grease works good also!

Steve

I thought about that but, it's done now. I'll use it on the bottom radiator hose when I replace it along with a coolant change next month.

Post by **HenryJ** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:57 am

I have never used a lubricant or "antisieze" on coolant hoses. Just seems like it would create a situation where sealing or retention problems might arise.

I have used WD-40 as a lubricant during assembly of line fittings and in some situations where assembly was difficult. It evaporates.

For motorcycle hand grips, I use hairspray. Wet it acts as a lubricant. When it drys it glues them in place. Add water to remove. Polyvinyl alcohol might be used in this way? Haven't used it for that. It is a mold release for fiberglass work.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:45 pm

A thin layer of grease on the hose connections actually helps maintain a better seal over time.

Steve

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:47 pm

HenryJ wrote:For motorcycle hand grips, I use hairspray. Wet it acts as a lubricant. When it drys it glues them in place. Add water to remove.

That's a cool idea, I've never heard of that one before!

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:03 am

I would be hesitant to use any petroleum based lubricants on hoses. Radiator hoses will deteriorate when subjected to these compounds.
If the connection is one that is pressurized, such as is the case with the cooling system, you need the hose to grip the point where contact is made. 15 lbs doesn't sound like much. If the connection is lubricated, excessive torque may be required on the connection to retain the hose.
I think I will continue to use clean and dry connections primarily.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:03 am

HenryJ wrote:I would be hesitant to use any petroleum based lubricants on hoses. Radiator hoses will deteriorate when subjected to these compounds.

This is why I recommended o-ring grease or silicone electrical grease since neither one will deteriorate rubber.

A thin layer of grease promotes better sealing, keeps the rubber from dying out or cracking from the high temps and makes it a whole lot easier to remove and install new hoses when needed.

If the connection is one that is pressurized, such as is the case with the cooling system, you need the hose to grip the point where contact is made. 15 lbs doesn't sound like much. If the connection is lubricated, excessive torque may be required on the connection to retain the hose.

I can understand why you might be a little paranoid doing this, but mechanics have been doing this for a long time with no problems and you will even find this procedure in most repair manuals which shows that it is an accepted practice.

I have been doing this for over 15 years and I have never had a hose leak or come off as a result of using a thin layer of grease on the hose connections.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:16 pm

Your California mechanics have some strange practices.

A little ethelyne glycol (antifreeze) wiped around the inner lip ought to work fine. The argument of conditioning the hose doesn't hold water. If that were the case you would coat the outside as well.

I think I will pass on lubing the hoses. Just doesn't make sense to me. The mechanics around here don't practice that ritual. Maybe you all change hoses much more frequently. Hoses have improved greatly from the days where replacement was common. Most will at most need replacement every 150k or more at worst.
At that time if I need to cut the hose off, so be it. Hopefully I will change the hose only once in my life. Chances are no one lubed it before I get it. I know that it is not done at the factory.

If it works for you, good. I will not recommend the practice though.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:29 pm

HenryJ wrote:Your California mechanics have some strange practices.

Um, I think it's the other way around!

If it works for you, good. I will not recommend the practice though.

That's cool, but there is no need for you to recommend this practice since most repair manuals and most mechanics (except Oregon

) say this is an accepted practice.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:34 pm

killian96ss wrote:...no need for you to recommend this practice since most repair manuals ... say this is an accepted practice.

Scan a copy and prove it. No manuals I have suggest this. That goes for American Technical Society, Motor Service, Motor's Auto Repair, Chilton, Haynes, and Helms.

Might want to inform Autozone - Hose replacement

GM Data wrote:Installation Procedure

1. Install the radiator inlet hose to the coolant outlet.
2. Install the radiator inlet hose clamp to the coolant outlet.
3. Install the radiator inlet hose to the radiator.
4. Install the radiator inlet hose clamp to the radiator.
5. Install the radiator inlet hose to the support.
6. Install the air cleaner outlet duct.
7. Fill the cooling system.

Clean and install. I think I will let my hoses bond as they are designed to.

EDIT: I was only able to find one reference to lubricating radiator hoses. It was a "How-to" done by Valvoline. The were using a red chassis grease. Their reasoning was ease of installation and easy removal next time.
That , I am sure you will agree, is the wrong stuff to use on rubber hoses. That alone discredits that reference, IMO.
Lots of references to lubrication creating a situation where the hose may slip and prevent the bonding that is supposed to occur during the first engine warm-up.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:46 pm

This is just ridiculous!

I can see where this is going and I don't want to be a part of it so if you like doing things the "Oregon" way then go ahead!

This discussion is right up there with the metal on the magnet topic and I can see that there is no way of being right, correct, etc, no matter what I say.

My simple reply to this topic has turned into a "prove it" contest and I've learned to stay away from those discussions.

I know that using a thin layer of grease on coolant hose connections is a good idea and you say it is not, so with that said I'm sure the members can make up their own mind using the info provided.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:59 pm

killian96ss wrote:... I'm sure the members can make up their own mind using the info provided.

Agreed, however I would hope that they would do their own research and not use any forum , or single book as their sole source of information.

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:14 pm

BADs Crew · Post by **BADs Crew** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:30 pm

Gates installation recommendations.

T Man · Post by **T Man** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:43 pm

What about Silicon brake grease? This is what I have used on smaller hoses (i.e. vacuum lines etc.)at work, no rad hoses though

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:15 am

T Man wrote:What about Silicon brake grease? This is what I have used on smaller hoses (i.e. vacuum lines etc.)

Silicone brake grease would work and won't hurt the rubber.

All you need is a very thin layer on the inside of the hose connections.

The grease provides a better seal than using no grease and it helps keep the rubber pliable which will make the seal last longer because the inside of the hose will not dry out and crack at the connections which is the main reason why leaks start at the connections.

I know AGS used to make a product called "radiator hose grease" and Autozone used to carry it, but I'm not sure if they still have it or not.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:38 pm

Hose technology has changed. Old rubber hoses swelled when grease was applied. The old mechanics used to use that trick to swell the hose and make it seal better. The problem is that it deteriorates the hose and eventually it fails. The short term fix had long term consequences.

Newer hose composition has the hose designed to adhere to the contact surface somewhat. It tends to conform and adhere.

I can see using a compatible "lubricant" in cases where installation is very difficult. Antifreeze for a radiator or heater hose. Maybe some silicone spray for assembling a fuel line fitting or vacuum hose.

Gm recommends motor oil on the o-rings for the fuel pump connections. Jeez, there are lots of conflicting practices.

Use your best judgment and use it sparingly if at all.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:38 pm

I should just shoot myself now for replying but, I have a hard time staying away.

HenryJ wrote:Hose technology has changed. Old rubber hoses swelled when grease was applied. The old mechanics used to use that trick to swell the hose and make it seal better. The problem is that it deteriorates the hose and eventually it fails. The short term fix had long term consequences.

Hose technology has changed for the better, and if your use a non petroleum based grease then you won't have any problems with swelling of the hoses.

A very thin layer of grease on the inside of the hose connection will actually prolong the life of the hose by conditioning the rubber between the hose and the connection where heat usually cracks the hose from the inside out which is what usually causes leaks in this area.

The grease also helps installation and removal.

I do not see how in any way a thin layer of grease on the connections can be a problem.

I have been doing this for 15+ years on several different vehicles without any problems and I have never had to cut hoses off which usually damages the connection surface.

The only time I would recommend NOT greasing the inside of a hose connection would be if there were no retention lip on the connection (radiator, water pump, t-stat housing) which could possibly allow the hose to slide off under pressure even with a clamp on it.

Newer hose composition has the hose designed to adhere to the contact surface somewhat. It tends to conform and adhere.

The conforming part makes sense, but why would you want the hose to glue itself to the connection?

There is no need for this and it would only cause problems later when you try to remove it.

Use your best judgment and use it sparingly if at all.

Good advice, and if you do use a grease on the fittings make sure you use a very thin layer and a grease that is not petroleum based like silicone electrical grease, o-ring grease, or even AGS radiator hose grease which is designed specifically for radiator hose connections.

I personally like to use AGS Sil Glyde on all my o-rings and hose connections.

The AGS radiator hose grease may have been replaced by Sil Glyde since it covers more applications and does the same thing.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:03 pm

killian96ss wrote:I should just shoot myself now for replying but, I have a hard time staying away.

Resist the urge.

...A very thin layer of grease on the inside of the hose connection will actually prolong the life of the hose by conditioning the rubber between the hose and the connection where heat usually cracks the hose from the inside out which is what usually causes leaks in this area.

Where air can not enter there is no drying and the resulting cracking.

...I do not see how in any way a thin layer of grease on the connections can be a problem.

Over torquing the clamp to keep the hose from slipping under pressure damages the hose and the connection. Less torque is required to clamp a clean dry fitting. Older systems used much lower operating pressures. Some were not pressurized. This was not as critical then.

I have been doing this for 15+ years on several different vehicles without any problems...

I hope your luck holds. I have quite a few years more under my belt. (That may date me, I should have kept my mouth shut.

)

... why would you want the hose to glue itself to the connection?

That is kind of a no brainer?!? To seal and create a good connection. Hoses should be replaced after removal most times. I see no need to worry about how difficult they are to remove. If they are difficult to remove, they need to be replaced.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:29 pm

How did I know you were going to reply.

HenryJ wrote:Where air can not enter there is no drying and the resulting cracking.

You don't need air for the hose to crack and dry out from the inside out.

The damage is mostly caused by heat, not air, and a thin layer of grease will prevent this from happening.

Over torquing the clamp to keep the hose from slipping under pressure damages the hose and the connection. Less torque is required to clamp a clean dry fitting. Older systems used much lower operating pressures. Some were not pressurized. This was not as critical then.

I don't overtighten my clamps or damage my hoses even though they are all lubed so I'm not sure what your point here is.

I have greased hoses on everything from a 62 Nova to an 05 Blazer without any of the possible problems you have mentioned.

I have quite a few years more under my belt.

I can't argue with you there, but does age really make you more knowledgable or does it make you more stubborn to new ideas?

Just messin with ya.

I have learned new tricks from veterans as well as kids new to the automotive world so I don't think age has much to do with it, although I do trust the advice and opinions of the veterans more so than the kids.

I see no need to worry about how difficult they are to remove. If they are difficult to remove, they need to be replaced.

Yes, and you will most likely damage the sealing surface while taking them off because they were not protected with grease.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:47 pm

killian96ss wrote:How did I know you were going to reply.

Same way I knew you would continue to spread more poor advice.
Your theories still don't hold water.
Good coolant is designed to protect the system parts, not applied grease. No way is that going to help.

I can not believe that you think a clean dry connection would take less torque to retain it than one that is lubricated. Think about it. The more torque applied to the clamp the more damage is done to the hose.

If you really believe that greasing rubber parts is a good idea, then the transmission gaskets and intake seals should follow the same procedure.

I don't think so.

Any gasket or seal conforms to the surface imperfections. Any used seal or hose should be replaced if it is removed. Do I always replace these parts? No. Are they damaged during removal all the time? No. Some may still be serviceable. There is a risk as there is in reusing any seal or hose that has taken a set.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:43 pm

My turn already.

HenryJ wrote:I knew you would continue to spread more poor advice.

Huh?

I'm giving out good advice, not poor advise, but I guess we are all entitled to our own opinions even if they don't make sense.

Your theories still don't hold water.

Good coolant is designed to protect the system parts, not applied grease. No way is that going to help.

Talk about a quote that doesn't make sense.

Are you referring to the wonderful Dex-Cool that protect so well?

What does the coolant inside the system have to do with greasing the connections?

The answer is nothing at all.

Grease does help the connections whether you believe it or not.

I can not believe that you think a clean dry connection would take less torque to retain it than one that is lubricated. Think about it. The more torque applied to the clamp the more damage is done to the hose.

Did I ever say anything like that?

I did say "I don't overtighten my clamps or damage my hoses even though they are all lubed" which means that I have never had to apply more torque on a hose clamp that has grease on the connections to keep the hose from coming off vs a dry connection, so I guess your theory about hoses coming off really isn't true.

If you really believe that greasing rubber parts is a good idea, then the transmission gaskets and intake seals should follow the same procedure. I don't think so.

No, I don't believe that at all, this is just something you came up with.

I am only referring to greasing hoses and o-rings to protect them, not anything else.

Internal paper transmission gaskets, cork & rubber trans pan gaskets, and intake seals should be installed dry, but if you want to get technical then o-rings in the transmission should be installed with 0-ring grease.

I get the feeling we could go on and on here and never agree.

Oh well it's fun though.

Steve

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:50 pm

Why do I start threads like this? I need to invest a little more time into research before I ask something that results in a major debate.

My line of reasoning is in "trail repairs" and ways to speed them up. I was just changing a plug and I broke a plastic heat control valve in the process. It had four hose connections and the other three broke as a result of attempting to get the hoses off. I cut them off with a knife and got new hoses. They are specialized and are 5/8" and 3/4" hoses. I had a terrible time getting the broken heater valve part out of the hose to close the system. If, I cut it off to eliminate the broken part then the hose was to short to close the system to continue.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:58 pm

f9k9 wrote:Why do I start threads like this? I need to invest a little more time into research before I ask something that results in a major debate.

I think Brule would agree that debates are good so never hesitate to ask a question.

Our debate on such a simple topic is getting rather long though.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:03 pm

f9k9 wrote:... line of reasoning is in "trail repairs" and ways to speed them up.

A couple hose clamps and a splice if the hose is too short. This can be applied in the middle of the hose too.
I don't suggest you pack extra hose splices. Some spare clamps are a good idea though. Smaller ones can be added together to form a larger one..
The tube from a mag light can be used to splice a radiator hose. A small magligh tube works for a heater hose.
A tent pole tube, or cut a patch and hose clamp over it for a temp fix.

killian96ss, You still use cork trans gaskets? Try the rubber. Much better.

I do hope you don't learn a lesson the hard way by continuing to grease radiator hoses. Good luck with that.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:20 pm

HenryJ wrote:You still use cork trans gaskets? Try the rubber. Much better.

Would you believe the auto parts stores still carry regular cork gaskets?

I forget who still made them, but FRAM seems to keep popping into my head.

The last couple of trans fluid changes I did involved using cork gaskets, but they were dipped in rubber or something and none of them ever leaked after I installed them.

I have tried rubber, paper, cork, and rubber/dipped cork trans pan gaskets and the rubber/cork gasket seems to seal the best.

They are also much easier to peel off the next time around.

I do hope you don't learn a lesson the hard way by continuing to grease radiator hoses. Good luck with that.

I've never had a problem and don't suspect I ever will, and my only advise to you is that it is ok to do things that are different than you may have been taught a long time ago.

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:27 pm

killian96ss wrote:... my only advise to you is that it is ok to do things that are different than you may have been taught a long time ago.

Mine to you is ...to not always hold to the old ways, but embrace the new. Practices of old no longer apply to the new materials and systems of today. It can be difficult to get a bailing wire tractor mechanic to believe this. I know , as I am trying with more than just you. Some things do stay the same, but the more you know , the more you realize how little you really do.

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:34 pm

HenryJ wrote:Practices of old no longer apply to the new materials and systems of today.

It may be an old practice, but if you use the right grease it works better than nothing even on the newer systems.

the more you know , the more you realize how little you really do.

I like that quote!

As usual the discussion has been fun even if we disagree!

Steve

Post by **HenryJ** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:42 pm

That is just how Jim became a moderator here. Over six years ago now we had a very heated debate. I will call it a draw. He was the first person I asked to be a moderator here for that and his attention to detail as well as his different perspective in the modifications of these trucks.

You have some work to do "grasshopper"

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:24 pm

HenryJ wrote:You have some work to do "grasshopper"

Steve

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:11 pm

This is just an update on an e-mail I sent to AGS regarding their "radiator hose grease" packets.

Q. Do you still manufacture the "radiator hose grease" packets? I know Autozone used to carry it, but it seems that they don't stock it anymore. Is there anywhere else I can purchase this grease or is there another product that will work the same? Thanks for your help!

A. AutoZone is still purchasing this product; however, all stores may not be stocking it. If you are unable to find it, you can purchase the Sil-Glyde Brake Lubricant packet, as this is the same product packaged for a different use. This particular packet is the largest volume packet they carry, so you should not have any trouble finding stock at your local AutoZone store.

It appears that AGS does still make "radiator hose grease" for anyone that is interested or you can use Sil-Glyde as mentioned above.

For the skeptics:

Why would a company manufacture a product specifically made for radiator hoses if it was unsafe to use or not a recognized practice???????

Steve

T Man · Post by **T Man** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:06 pm

A company makes the tornado dont they..............

killian96ss · Post by **killian96ss** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:37 am

T Man wrote:A company makes the tornado dont they..............

Ok, you definitely have a point there.

Steve

T Man · Post by **T Man** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:42 pm

Sorry, I was a little drunk last night, im not trying to get in the middle of this debate

F9K9 · Post by **F9K9** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:53 pm

T Man wrote:Sorry, I was a little drunk last night, im not trying to get in the middle of this debate

You should be sorry! I started the thread and you have got to see how I stayed clear

I ain't ain't even wearing beer goggles yet