Ok, this is a hot topic for me these days. John S. brought this to my attention in an email, and now I'm on a quest for the true unbias answer. I've gutted my MAF sensor about a year ago and have not had any problems. When I first did the mod, I could REALLY feel the difference it made. But after reading information on the Granetelli web site, I'm concerned that this mod could be "learned out", or could be hurting my truck in some way. I have not felt any loss of power, but I may not be taking advantage of this mod since the computer could have the ability to disregard the change.
What are the disadvantages of home porting the factory MAF Sensor?
Granetelli says that the factory computer (PCM) will ìlearn outî these modifications after 200 miles negating any performance increase and cause the engine to run lean if you just gut the screen from the factory Sensor.
The only solution is to use a "truly calibrated" mass airflow sensor.
Is this statment true?. What do you guys think, those of you who have done this mod/or after doing this mod installled the Granetelli MAF sensor. Did you see or feel any difference?
Thanks for your help
[size=75]Throttle Body Riser, CFM-Tech High Flow Throttle Blade, K&N Gen 2, JetChip Stage 2, IAT Relocated, Power Pulleys, Mod'ed MSF Sensor, Flowmaster 50, HD Radiator, MSD6AL Ignition w/MSD Wires, E-Fan, Aux. E-Fan, HD Trans Cooler, 180 Jet Power Stat, B&M Electronic Shift Improver, 2" Body lift[/size]
a2b wrote:sorry man, i dont know much about this area
It's all John's Fault...lol
I really truly don't feel like I've lost any power, or that my truck runs worse off... But it is a good question to know the answer to. Just for others who wish to do this mod.
[size=75]Throttle Body Riser, CFM-Tech High Flow Throttle Blade, K&N Gen 2, JetChip Stage 2, IAT Relocated, Power Pulleys, Mod'ed MSF Sensor, Flowmaster 50, HD Radiator, MSD6AL Ignition w/MSD Wires, E-Fan, Aux. E-Fan, HD Trans Cooler, 180 Jet Power Stat, B&M Electronic Shift Improver, 2" Body lift[/size]
Do you have a link to the Granatelli website for the information you are refering?
I removed my MAF screen, can't say I've noticed much difference , good or bad.
As I understand it the screen is there to "straighten" the airflow over the sensors caused by the stock air box. The benefit to removing it would be the potential to flow more air at WOT, and perhaps somewhat quicker throttle response. The problems could arise from turbulent airflow creating false readings.
There are sure a bunch of people throwing around stories about the "artificial intelligence" the PCM has, but I'm a bit sceptical.
I do not completely understand all the power it has , but I'm pretty sure it won't decide what I'm having for lunch. yet...I think?
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
OK, having read all the information, I agree with all that it has to say.
Porting the MAF is a "No, NO. You do not want to alter the diameter or significantly modify the airflow characteristics. Removing minor imperfections is OK.
This has nothing to do with the screen removal, airbox changes, filter changes , etc.
Modifications before and after the sensor could be beneficial, ie. FIPK , swissed box, etc. the sensor will still read the volume of air passed.
I too am a bit skeptical of the gains with the GMS, but a carefully calibrated MAF could see gains. I'm not so sure that for the price, it would be worth it. The money would be better spent on FIPK and headers first. JMHO
I still stand by my previous post, until persuaded otherwise.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
I tried, and failed at getting JBA headers installed. Boy was I upset. The Body lift/Steering box got in the way of installing them. Passenger side would have been no problem, but the drivers side was just to tight, the tubes on the JBA header got in the way.
I'm sure someone who could fabricate streering box brackets could make it work, but the shop I took my truck to, couldn't do it.
Sucks to be me...
[size=75]Throttle Body Riser, CFM-Tech High Flow Throttle Blade, K&N Gen 2, JetChip Stage 2, IAT Relocated, Power Pulleys, Mod'ed MSF Sensor, Flowmaster 50, HD Radiator, MSD6AL Ignition w/MSD Wires, E-Fan, Aux. E-Fan, HD Trans Cooler, 180 Jet Power Stat, B&M Electronic Shift Improver, 2" Body lift[/size]
That's a bummer to hear that headers are not an option
Might be a good excuse to go with a suspension lift and take out the body lift?
I guess there is still room to upgrade the stock exhaust system (Y-pipe, cats) before going to headers.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
There's always serious debate about this on the F-Body boards too...remove the screen or not...aftermarket MAF or ported...the debate still continues. In my opinion, removing the MAF screen will cause no negative effects with the intake setup that we have. The MAF is close enough to the filter that the air is "straightened" enough by the filter to get decent readings. Also, the PCM can "learn" when mods are addded to the engine, but I would think that, if anything, it would recognize the greater airflow, and compensate with slightly more fuel, thereby creating more power. It's like in the past, on older carbeurated cars, when you'd run an open exhaust, you'd have to adjust the carbeurator so that you wouldn't burn your valves due to the increased exhaust flow...now the PCM can compensate for that automatically.
Now as for aftermarket MAF's vs. porting...from everything I've read on the F-Body boards, Granatelli MAF's are a waste of money. They hurt performance WAY more than they help it. Maybe this was just for LS1's and our trucks would be different, but I doubt it. Not really sure of the details as to why they were no good, but I know several people complained about poor performance after adding a Granatelli.
Whenever you mess with the MAF, you should have access to some sort of tuning also. Use of an MAFT (MAF Translator) or some type of PCM editing software is essential whenever you modify the MAF. For the FBodies, there was LS1 Edit that you could use to calibrate your fuel delivery tables to compensate for MAF readings that the PCM wasn't used to. I'm by no means an expert on this, but I can ask a friend of mine who is and share the information with you guys.
Now...to sum up this book I just wrote...I wouldn't mess with the MAF other than to remove the screen, unless you have access to custom PCM tuning, then I'd port it before I'd waste $300-$400 on a Granatelli MAF.
[size=75]Mark
[b][i][color=red]2004 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 Quad Cab[/color][/i][/b]
[b][color=blue]"There are no stupid questions, just stupid people."[/color][/b][/size]
OK...here's the info I got from my buddy. He says don't mess with the MAF at all except for removing the screen...it will just cause more problems than benefits. The stock units do just fine and don't create any significant bottle neck in the intake to reduce performance. It would only really be limiting things if your engine started to get into the 500+ HP range, and I doubt any of our 4.3's will be putting out those kinds of numbers anytime soon. In addition, he also said that most of the top PCM tuners in the country won't even touch a vehicle with a ported or aftermarket MAF because they're way to complicated and can cause too many problems with tuning.
[size=75]Mark
[b][i][color=red]2004 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 Quad Cab[/color][/i][/b]
[b][color=blue]"There are no stupid questions, just stupid people."[/color][/b][/size]
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
kwalsh wrote:What is a safe cleaning agent to use when cleaning the sensors?
Air intake cleaner made specifically for fuel injected engines (I believe Gumout makes this stuff in a gray spray can), and like HenryJ mentioned rubbing alcohol and a Q-tip. Don't use carb cleaner, or anything that might leave a residue. The MAF sensors are very sensitive to contamination. If you run a K&N or any type of oiled air filter, you should clean the MAF more often because they do leave an oily residue on the sensors which can cause engine performance problems if not cleaned periodically.
Check out the date this discussion started: Posted: 15 Oct 2002 11:44 am
HenryJ wrote:...I too am a bit skeptical of the gains with the GMS, but a carefully calibrated MAF could see gains. I'm not so sure that for the price, it would be worth it...
AZS10Crew wrote:... Granatelli MAF's are a waste of money. They hurt performance WAY more than they help it. Maybe this was just for LS1's and our trucks would be different, but I doubt it. Not really sure of the details as to why they were no good, but I know several people complained about poor performance after adding a Granatelli...
Anybody running an aftermarket MAFS?
This is one I have been curious about. I have a friend who has installed a Granatelli MAFS on every new truck he has purchased. He swears by them.
I finally found a fair buy on one to try out. As usual I find it hard to believe some of the information that is out there and opt to try it myself. This may or may not be a good idea, but I need to try it out for myself.
I can see that a precision calibrated performance sensor could be of value.
As to the artificial intelligence of the PCM...it can be fooled. I have done that. I do not agree with the claim that the PCM will "learn out" any gains. It will only read what it is given and if it is fed the information that it wants gains can be achieved.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
If you can get a really cheap price on one go for it. Basically you will gain nothing with one of these since the stock MAF can already flow way more air that our 4.3 could ever use. If you had a supercharger it may be of some use in the upper rpm range. At first you will notice a little more power, but after a specified amount of time the computer will recalibrate the air fuel ratio back to stock resulting in no gain. The reason Granatelli and Jet are able to claim hp gains is because when you first install one and run the car on a dyno you will see a 10 hp increase only because the engine is running on the lean side due to the increased air flow and recalibrated air fuel ratio in the electronics. Almost all PCM's since 1995 have the ability to correct a lean condition through recalibration of the air fuel ratio especially if it sees a constant engine damaging lean condition. I'm surprised these companies can still get away with their claims even though several thousand people have proved them wrong.
Gotta prove it to me. Just because some others say so is not good enough.
I am not interested in more flow. That seems to be a common misconception. While the aftermarket MAFS may indeed flow more , it is the precision calibration that most interests me. Stock sensors are not necessarily fine tuned.
Since our trucks already run a lean burn technology I would think a slightly richer mixture would be where the gains would be seen.
The PCM can not "learn" what it does not receive. If a sensor gives it different information, it does not know what has been altered. It simply uses the received information to make its adjustments.
Surely you can see that it is possible for there to be improvements. At the very least the ABS or phenolic housings prevention of heat soak should offer advantages.
Sorry, if I don't just follow the herd. There is just way too much misinformation that gets spread around.
Have you ever used a Granatelli mass airflow sensor?
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
I run a LS6 MAF along with a mild Supercharger. Tried with both the stock MAF and LS6 and it seems like the top end has more go...I'm no expert but I figure that with the additional air the LS6 can read more air intake thus telling the PCM to allow more fuel. I also have LS1 edit that also helps with the additional fuel settings. Again I'm not an expert but for me the LS6 works
HenryJ wrote:Have you ever used a Granatelli mass airflow sensor?
Yes, and several thousand other people who have proved that they simply don't work unless you have custom PCM tuning or your using a supercharger. Another thing worth mentioning is that they don't work well with the Hypertech tuning. In most cases the combination of the Hypertech tuning combined with an aftermarket MAF will cause pinging or detonation problems. It seems to mainly be a problem only with Hyertech's tuning as I have not heard of similar problems with other tuners. You are right about the heat soak advantage of the housing which is nice and I would hope that the electronics would be a little better than stock, but the only way to truly get any gains with the Granatelli is to combine it with custom PCM tuning like some of the guys over a ZR2.com are now trying out. Brian Herter @ pcmforless.com can work wonders with a stock PCM and for only $250 which is much cheaper that the Hypertech tuning not to mention a million times better. I'm running their tuning in my SS now and I can tell you for sure that I picked up almost 20 more hp than the Hypertech was giving me. When the warranty on my CC runs out at 100k this will definitely be the route I will take. Like I said earlier if you can find one of these aftermarket MAF's for cheap go for it. There are ways to make them work and gains that can be made, however I would just hate to see another person pay $350-$400 for one only to find that it didn't deliver the promised gains.
Brule, if you are getting a Granatelli MAF for cheap, check the part #. You want part # 350116-C (black), 350116-BC (blue), or 350116-RC (red). Part # 350116 is just the basic one. You want one with the C, BC, or RC code that includes cold air tuning for aftermarket kits like the K&N FIPK.
The Granatelli MAFS arrived today. The housing is a larger diameter for sure. It matches the FIPK better. The stock MAFS necks down at the sensor. I had a heck of a time getting it into the hoses and had to rob the clamps off of my stock intake tube, since they were larger.
The unit I bought shows external signs that it has been used for quite a while.
Some light deposits on the back side of one of the sensors warranted cleaning them all before installation.
First impression of the housing interior is that it is a little crude. Perhaps a better description would be lacking finish, or detail. There was still some flashing exposed at the mold line. I carefully filed this away.
More later.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
UPDATE: So far things look good for the Granatelli MAFS. No problems.
I seem to have improved a little in the 2500-3000 rpm range. There may be a little improvement in the top end since it really seems to screech the belt when it shifts. That may be just related to age and conditions though.
No huge differences in performance.
Mileage was up .4 mpg on the last fill. The next two tanks (1600 miles) will tell the story. I should have a better idea after this weekends journey.
So far I would rate it worthwhile, but not a "must have". The descreened MAFS was working pretty well.
I would say the difference is pretty comparable to some of the other mods. Modded stock air box to K&N FIPK, Stock ignition to MSD 6a, Descreened stock MAFS to Granatelli MAFS.
The stock systems really do a pretty good job. If you are a "mod junkie" and come across a good buy, then this one is acceptable.
Keep in mind that just because it works well in my combination, does not mean it will work well for everyone. I have quite a few mods that may influence the outcome.
So far everything I am running is working pretty well together.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
I wish someone could point me in the direction of properly descreening the MAF and the throttle blade mod. I ended up destroying the screen in my MAF descreening when I did mine on the one I throated. My searches on the throttle blade mod are probably misworded.
[size=75][b]"For those who have fought for it, [i][color=red]FR[/color][color=white]EE[/color][color=blue]DOM[/color][/i] has a taste that the protected will never know."
[url=http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=73349]GUIDE TO SEARCHING. [i] (Some of the forum software is different but, it has helped me a lot.)[/i][/url][/b]
[b]"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." Edmund Burke[/b][/size]
HenryJ wrote:UPDATE: So far things look good for the Granatelli MAFS. No problems.
Glad to hear your not having any problems with your Granatelli.
I seem to have improved a little in the 2500-3000 rpm range. There may be a little improvement in the top end since it really seems to screech the belt when it shifts. That may be just related to age and conditions though.
The only way to know for sure would be to dyno it before, after, and again after a 100 miles or so. I think you would be surprised to see absolutely no gain after the 3rd dyno run that shows the true gains after the PCM has compensated for the Granatelli's calibration.
So far I would rate it worthwhile, but not a "must have". The descreened MAFS was working pretty well.
This is not a worthwhile mod in any way. Why would anyone want to pay $300-$400 for absolutely no gain? If you are getting one for under a $100 then maybe you could somewhat justify it, but it's still just a waste of money unless you plan on future custom PCM tuning or a supercharger. Brule, just so you know I am in no way attacking you on this subject, and in fact I am glad to hear that the Granatelli is working for you. The discussion on aftermarket MAF's has been going on for a long time on other forums and almost everyone agrees that they are a complete waste of money and that Granatelli and the other aftermarket MAF manufacturers should be held accountable for their deceiving marketing tactics. I do not wish to argue this subject with anyone since it's pointless to do so when the real info is out there and it has been proven time and time again that aftermarket MAF's do not work unless you have custom PCM tuning or a supercharged engine.
I guess I am THE one in a million that they DO work for. Not everyone agrees that they are a waste
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
I think we all get the fact that your mind is made up , and there is no room for further testing. Thanks.
I have spent money on things that did not work on my truck. The best I can do is offer my honest opinion and relay any information that I find. I don't jump to conclusions. This has been on for well over a month, and close to 800 miles. After another tank or two of fuel I will have a clearer picture.
Performance is nice, and every little bit helps, but mileage rules.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
WOW, what a thread to read through. I've got a few things to add that might be interesting for someone to read. I'm speaking from a tuning standpoint on most of this. I've been involved with tuning turbocharged 4.3's for a few years now, and while most of them don't have a MAF, they do use the same PCM logic from one to the next. Understanding the PCM logic is KEY to getting decent results from any modification.
Re-Learning.
This is a 1/2 truth. The PCM doesn't relearn anything. It adjusts parameters, and things called BLM's (Block Learn Multipliers). Essentially this is how it works. At cruise and part throttle the PCM is running what is called Closed loop mode. It takes readings from the narrow band O2 sensor, and checks that against a commanded AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) in the PCM lookup table. If ti's lean it adjusts the BLM one way, if rich the other. The BLM is fed into the calculation that is used to determine the PW (pulse width) of the injectors (or poppet valves in our case). SO while the PCM won't "Relearn" anything pertaining to the MAF, it will adjust to keep the truck near it's design AFR....Keep in mind this is all part throttle.
WOT Gains.
During a WOT run, the PCM goes into PE mode (Performance Enrichment). This mode discards the O2 readings, and runs ONLY from the internal lookup tables, and a few other sensors. The MAF is one of those sensors. It also takes the richest setting possible from the BLM. FOr example if your BLM's are removing fuel to lean the mixture, it will ZERO them while in PE, if they are adding fuel to richen the mixture it will take that value and add it in to the calculation. Richer is safer, so the PCM will default to the richer of the two.
Tricking the PCM.
This, in my experience, is a bad idea. Why would you want to feed the PCM bad information. It's just like any other computer you've ever used. If you feed it bad information, it's going to make a bad decision. You want the PCM to have the most accurate information it can possibly have. Switching to a Grantelli, or other MAF with reclaibrating the tables in the PCM is essentially feeding the PCM the wrong information. Sure poeple have done it in the past, and it has somewhat worked, but it's kind of a hack way to do it IMO.
The value of a good tune.
Just as mentioned above, a GOOD tune will get you more bang for your buck than any other mod. Period. The stock PCM is setup in a way so that the standard tune will work everywhere from Arizona, to Alaska. It is also designed to take into account a huge amount of tolerance stackups through the manufacturing process. Each engine will run slightly different, and need a slightly different tune depending on your location, driving style, and a myriad of other things. The $700 you spend on a good tuning tool (such as EFILive Flashscan 7, HPTuners, or LS1Edit) and a good wideband O2 setup, will pay huge dividends in your optimization of YOUR truck. A PCMforless tune, or other equivelant package are the next best thing. They tune pretty close to optimal, but still leave a little on the table for safety reasons. I personally wouldn't run a Hypertech, or other generic programmer unless all you want it the tire correction ability. Having a tuning program and learning how to use it will provide hands down the best results.
So after a novel of a post, I'll offer a small conclusion. Aftermarket MAF's are useless in our application unless you are pushing big power (350-400hp or more), and need the extra flow. Otherwise, you can see bigger and better benefits from spending your money elsewhere.
As for the direction my truck will be heading. I'll be removing the MAF, and putting it on the shelf when I get my copy of EFILive. I'll be going to a complete speed density tune, and ignoring the MAF all togethor. The MAF is there to make small corrections, and if you have a good base SD tune, you don't need it IMO.
I guess I'll say it one more time so that everyone knows the truth. Aftermarket MAF's do not work unless you have custom PCM tuning or a supercharger!!! For the record this is not just my opinion. My statement is based on the thousands of people who have proved that aftermarket MAF's are a waste of money since you gain nothing with one. If anyone out there wants to spend $300-$400 for maybe 2 hp then go for it!!!
killian96ss wrote:I guess I'll say it one more time so that everyone knows the truth. Aftermarket MAF's do not work unless you have custom PCM tuning or a supercharger!!! For the record this is not just my opinion. My statement is based on the thousands of people who have proved that aftermarket MAF's are a waste of money since you gain nothing with one. If anyone out there wants to spend $300-$400 for maybe 2 hp then go for it!!!
HenryJ wrote:... I should have a better idea after this weekends journey.
Improvements seem to be in the mid range. Low end is the same and upper as well.
Gas mileage seems to show a similar trend. While mixed and city driving show some moderate improvement, highway shows a small decrease. Some of this could have been due to inclimate weather, but I hesitate to blame it all on that. Over 654 miles there was a loss of 1-1.5 mpg. That is not good news.
But wait, it gets better...offroad mileage was simply the worst I have ever endured. Performance was good. Really good. This was not extraordinarily rough offroading, but there was 154 miles of trail. No four low action. Mileage dropped to 10.4 mpg. This is a good 3-4 mpg loss over "the usual".
I have yet to fill after the trip. That will give me mileage for the return trip and another 600 miles or so.
Testing continues as now it is time to return to the stock MAFS and confirm any differences.
EDIT: After a day or so, my initial impression is that the response is "dulled". Perhaps , not as crisp. The shifts are not as quick and it does not screech the belt at shift points nearly as much. Still way too soon to see if the mileage has returned.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
HenryJ wrote:Testing continues as now it is time to return to the stock MAFS and confirm any differences.
EDIT: After a day or so, my initial impression is that the response is "dulled". Perhaps , not as crisp. The shifts are not as quick and it does not screech the belt at shift points nearly as much. Still way too soon to see if the mileage has returned.
Have you regained your normal gas mileage yet or is it still the same? The belt screeching thing doesn't make any sense to me. It really sounds like you need a new belt. The Goodyear Gatorback belts work better than most and don't slip at all. Even if you picked up a few hp with the aftermarket MAF your belt shouldn't be screeching at all.
killian96ss wrote:...Have you regained your normal gas mileage yet or is it still the same?
Still too soon to say for sure yet. With an 800 mile range I don't gas up very often
June 24 I topped off and had 15.97 mpg. That was city driving with AC, probably back to normal. Last fill was 14.? and that included some four low wheeling in Silver City.
So, I guess it probably is back up. I want to check once more so that I have three to average.
"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving! - ThunderIIKE7CSK
Another thing worth mentioning is that they don't work well with the Hypertech tuning. In most cases the combination of the Hypertech tuning combined with an aftermarket MAF will cause pinging or detonation problems. It seems to mainly be a problem only with Hyertech's tuning as I have not heard of similar problems with other tuners. You are right about the heat soak advantage of the housing which is nice and I would hope that the electronics would be a little better than stock, but the only way to truly get any gains with the Granatelli is to combine it with custom PCM tuning like some of the guys over a ZR2.com are now trying out. 
I'm running their tuning in my SS now and I can tell you for sure that I picked up almost 20 more hp than the Hypertech was giving me. 
When the warranty on my CC runs out at 100k this will definitely be the route I will take. 
Why would anyone want to pay $300-$400 for absolutely no gain? 
If you are getting one for under a $100 then maybe you could somewhat justify it, but it's still just a waste of money unless you plan on future custom PCM tuning or a supercharger. 
