Tight and responsive steering: Another How-To! (not advised)

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Tight and responsive steering: Another How-To! (not advised)

Post by rlith »

EDIT: This is not advised and may be unsafe. Read the whole thread. -HJ

So it's me again with another how-to :rotf:

So feeling a little bored, somewhat adventurous, and certifiably insane, I went for an incredibly dangerous mod. The reason I say it was dangerous, is that if I didn't do it slow and do it right, I would have been majorly hosed.

The reason for this mod is because even with a fairly new model intermediate shaft, my steering was still sloppy and my goal (which I achieved beyond my initial hope) was to get rid of the slop once and for all.

Some of you may remember my thread, "Facts about Steering Slop". In that thread I discussed the issues with "most" steering slop being caused by the rag joints at the base of the intermediate shaft wearing out. The rag joint is essentially a cloth material held together with rivets. Unfortunatly these tend to wear quickly and the intermediate shaft runs from 200-300 bux new. YOU CANNOT SIMPLY REPLACE THE RAG JOINT!

In the same thread I mentioned the Borgeson solid intermediate shafts that use a u-joint system w/ no rag joint as an option. Unfortunatly these too are also 200-300 bux. I found another solution.

Some had mentioned adapting Jeep wrangler intermediate shafts to their first gens to eliminate the rag joint. This hasn't been discussed much. But that as an aside, I started looking for info for using a Jeep shaft in a second gen (95 to current). Nothing was available, so I decided to look on my own.

The reason I was interested in the Jeep shafts, is because like the borgeson, they use a U-Joint type system. As long as the joints are good, there will not be any play in the shaft what so ever.

The 95 and up trucks differ from the 94 and below because the 95+ trucks have a 9 inch stem coming out of the firewall that the intermediate shaft slips OVER for telescoping purposes. This reduces vibration and in case of front end collision the shaft collapses. In the 94 and below, the intermediate shaft is the stem and the portion at the firewall is a hollow sleeve to allow the telescoping and collapse.

So Grappler and I start looking around the boneyard I looked at a 98 Jeep Grand Cherokee, a regular cherokee, and a Wrangler. The Cherokee and the Wrangler use a solid shaft that is essentially a stem, they were more inline of the 94 and below. After some checking, we discovered only the Wrangler shaft would work with the 94 and below, the regular Cherokee was too short by about 4 inches.

Now we look at the Grand Cherokee. It's a telescoping shaft with the steering column side looked like it might fit over the stem coming out of the firewall in the 95+ trucks. It also had the added benifit of having a u-joint on both ends of the shaft allowing good support with maximum flexability. Yes, I thought. This may just work.

NOTE: The splines on ALL of the Jeep intermediate shafts including the key where it connects to the steering box is exactly the same as the Chevy's. No modifications at the steering box side are needed.


So it's d-day and after thinking about how this would have to be done. We knew we would have to shorten the stem (which is part of the steering column). This was the scary part. I knew if we got this wrong, I would have to replace the steering shaft and that would be no fun, and quite expensive, even from a bone yard. But again, being bored, aventureous and insane, I had to at least give it a try.

Shown here are 3 intermediate shafts.
From left to right. 1st is the OEM shaft w/ the rag joint, Center is the Grand Jeep Cherokee shaft, and the right one is the one from the Wrangler.

Image

So we have to start some where. Grappler used a good micrometer on the intermediate shaft as well as the stem to compare dimensions. The stem from top to bottom (on the arced portion) had a difference of 60000th of an inch. This may not seem like much, but it is. (The sides were a good fit and considering that it's the sides of the stem (the flat parts) being clamped when tightened, we only needed to worry about the arcs.

Out comes the dremmel w/ a small grinding stone.

Here we dremmel out the top and bottom arcs to give us the fit we wanted on the stem.

Image

So we dremmel and measure, dremmel and measure. We were getting a bit annoyed at having to keep trying to compare and test fit in the engine compartment. So what do I do?!

I break out the air grinder w/ a cutting wheel and I cut about an inch or so off the stem so we have a live piece we can work with for testing the fit.

Image

So after a little more grinding of the arcs, and another test fit, we were comfortable with the fit.

Now for the really fun part. If we get this wrong, I'm farked. I'm farked big time. I'm so farked, I would rather be anally raped by angry midgets....But I had to try.

So we measure, and do a faux fit (connect it to the steering box and telescope it and see where we need to cut). We figured the total amount of the stem we needed to cut was 5-1/4". The reason for this is to give plenty of collapseability to the shaft. We didn't want it compressed, that would have been useless.

So we cut it off using a dremmel cut off wheel instead of the air grinder. The fact that the grinder grabs and jumps a bit and I really didn't want to cut into my brake lines or any other wiring on that side of the truck

Image

Total amount cut off 5-1/4"

Image

What we had left.

Image

So we grind any burrs out and make it look pretty (and flat) and the shaft slips on like getting with a 16 year old anxious virgin. (Tight, firm, and exciting),,,,(not that I would know about that...cough cough)

Gratuitus shot of Grappler's s10 w/ the Mercury Couger rear independant suspension setup. (Just had to throw this in)

Image

So anyway. The shaft is a perfect fit. My steering wheel is the straightest it's ever been, and plenty of space between the manifolds and the shaft. I breathe a sigh of relief.

Image



So Grappler and I take it out for a test drive and beat on it pretty hard. As I said, the steering wheel is straight, responsiveness and tightness is incredible (especially w/ my ZQ8 steering box). The truck practically drives itself now! I don't have to swing the steering wheel back and fourth to keep the damn thing straight anymore! YAY! Several miles and tons of turns and curves later, I'm quite happy.

On my way home, I start thinking. GM put the rag joint in, in part for vibration dampning. Hmmm. We really didn't run it through a test for that. What can I do? Well, this being Pennsylvania, the Pothole capital of the world, and being in Pittsburgh, the cobblestone capital of the world, I figured a little more testing was in order.

First I head down some side streets where I know there are some bad potholes. Pretty good, but very hard to tell if there is any vibration when your truck is rocking back and fourth on the pothole slolam (sic?) I needed something else. I head for Squirrel Hill. (Those of you who live around here know what that area is like) I drove 2 miles worth of cobblestone streets. Not one iota of vibration through the steering column. It was a very smooth (albeit noisy) ride. I'm happy...

But wait! There's more!

I figured a speed test was in order. A lot of vibration can happen at higher speeds. Had to do it. I hit I-279. It's me, the road, the truck and a Venti coffee w/ a shot. (I picked up Starbucks). 50, 60, 80, 96 MPH.....Smooth as glass! I finish my coffee and go home.


So in conclusion, for an average $25.00 or less and 2 hours of your time, you can have this mod and eliminate that damn steering slop causing rag joint and be happy! Just please be aware, this is a PERMANANT modification. Once you cut that stem off the steering shaft you are committed. It's not a hard mod. On a 1-10 difficulty level, I would rate it a 5. If you do do it, you will love it and wonder why you didn't do it sooner. If you decide not to do it, you can remain jealous of those that have and continue to complain about your steering slop. :rant:

Enjoy, good night, and don't forget to try the veal.... :evilg:
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Post by rlith »

Well, after a full week of driving, I can honestly say that this is probably one of the best mods I've done in terms of time invested vs result..
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Post by HenryJ »

I have read the post many times and things are not clear.

What shaft did you purchase to replace the stock one? The year range , make , models and a part number would be great. This would be the most valuable piece of information.

It looks like you used the dremmel extensively. The photo of the column steering shaft at the firewall appears to have been modified?

You mention cutting a pin? Do you have a picture of the pin that was removed?

I assume that the 5 1/4" piece that you removed is from the lower half of the replacement shaft? Or was the "third" shaft pictured used?

Was any thought given to finding a shaft that would not require modification of the stock components? How about retaining the use of the stock upper joint?

Why couldn't the "wrangler" shaft be cut to length, drilled for the cross pin and use the stock pot joint? Was it the correct diameter? Was it long enough? If it is not long enough or the correct diameter could it be adapted to the pot joint using a piece of the stock lower shaft?

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Post by rlith »

HenryJ wrote:I have read the post many times and things are not clear.

What shaft did you purchase to replace the stock one? The year range , make , models and a part number would be great. This would be the most valuable piece of information.
I was very clear on that. We used the 98+ Grand Chrokee shaft.
HenryJ wrote: It looks like you used the dremmel extensively. The photo of the column steering shaft at the firewall appears to have been modified?
Not extensively at all. We simply remove 1/60000th of an inch from the arches at the top an bottom of the portion that connects to the steering column. The sides were perfext and required no modification. The reason it took so long is we were using a stone grinder on hardened steel. That takes a while.
HenryJ wrote:You mention cutting a pin? Do you have a picture of the pin that was removed?


Not a pin, the stem coming out of the firewall.
HenryJ wrote:I assume that the 5 1/4" piece that you removed is from the lower half of the replacement shaft? Or was the "third" shaft pictured used?
No, the 5-1/4 piece was removed from the stem coming out of the firewall which is part of the steering column itself.
HenryJ wrote:Was any thought given to finding a shaft that would not require modification of the stock components? How about retaining the use of the stock upper joint?


There is no real stock upper joint. And after looking at other trucks we found that outside of a custom borgeson setup, this was the best way to go. (Especially at $200.00+ bucks)
HenryJ wrote:Why couldn't the "wrangler" shaft be cut to length, drilled for the cross pin and use the stock pot joint? Was it the correct diameter? Was it long enough? If it is not long enough or the correct diameter could it be adapted to the pot joint using a piece of the stock lower shaft?


The wrangler shaft as mentioned above can be used for 1st gens, not second gens (as stated in the article). And for a 1st gen the wrangler shaft requires no modification at all. The setups on 1st gens are completely opposite than the setups on the second gens.
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Post by rmzl »

What do you think about the setup being weaker now?
The area that held the steering "forces" was split over the whole 5-1/4+ piece, now, the contact point/area is much less, do you think this should be a concern?
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Post by rlith »

rmzl wrote:What do you think about the setup being weaker now?
The area that held the steering "forces" was split over the whole 5-1/4+ piece, now, the contact point/area is much less, do you think this should be a concern?
Not weaker what so ever, the stability factor of the entire shaft has actually improved. My biggest worry at the time was vibration dampning but that hasn't been an issue. It's funny, looking at the blowups and schematics of the grand cherokee steering column and our steering columns, there is very little difference. I've even off roaded my truck with this column and again, no issues. Strength is definatly not an issue. :)
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Post by HenryJ »

EDIT: IGNORE ALL OF WHAT IS IN THIS POST. I really should delete most of this , as I was wrong about several things. Read my next post!

rlith wrote:...My biggest worry at the time was vibration dampning but that hasn't been an issue.
I now know why :mg: The upper joint has a vibration dampener ( Top center in this picture ) the body has a cast piece of rubber between the shaft and housing. That pin goes through and is a failsafe should the rubber deteriorate.

I did a little more research. The shaft fits late in the model year 1995 to 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Part number 52079050 costs $171 and supersedes to part number 52079050AB at a cost of $180. Salvage yards charge $20-$25 for used shafts.

The lower joint will fit with out issue since both use the late model coarse splined saginaw steering boxes.

The S-10 shaft that exits the column is .750" in diameter with two flat sides that measure .555" across. The Jeep upper joint has one round side and three squared. If you measure the rounded side across you get .705" and from flat surface to flat measures .552"
So basically the dremel , or round file work that needs to be done is to create the missing rounded side in the Jeep joint. It is only .050" deep and the joint is aluminum, so filing it out by hand is not too difficult. The piece cut off of the S-10 column can be used as a guide.

I can see another reason why this might be a good idea.
Gm has used a "pot joint" in the past. This is a grease filled slip / universal joint. The rubber seal regularly failed and contaminants deteriorated the components to the point of steering slop. It looks like GM's answer to this problem was to eliminate the upper joint on our trucks! :shock: I was not aware of this. I guess ,I assumed, and we all know what that means! :oops:
How ... or why , the steering does not bind, I do not know. I would bet that it is likely that there is some real pressure on that rag joint after a body lift though. After a while it would be no wonder there would be some slop in the rag joint from the added stress of the misalignment.

My steering is not loose. Now that the vibration issue has been resolved and with the discovery of the missing upper joint, I will be making the steering shaft conversion. I picked up a decent shaft and modded it to fit the S-10 shaft. All that is left is to cut the column shaft and install.
Last edited by HenryJ on Wed May 24, 2006 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by F9K9 »

Lawd Gawd, is there no friggin' end to this endless modding creating problems requiring additional modding? :bonk:
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Post by killian96ss »

Since we are talking about upgraded steering shafts, I thought I would post a pic of the Borgeson shaft on my SS. Both u-joints are stainless steel and the bottom joint has a built in vibration reducer. The same set up should work on our trucks with the exception of the upper u-joint. :D

Upper U-Joint
Image

Lower U-Joint With Vibration Reducer
Image

Steve
Last edited by killian96ss on Wed May 24, 2006 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by HenryJ »

Time for me to "taste shoe", "take my foot out of my mouth", "eat crow", etc...
I was wrong. I did not do enough research, and learned some things in the process.

There is a "pot joint". It is directly behind the firewall at the base of the steering column. Gm did a very good thing by moving it to a cooler, cleaner environment and better aligning it with the correct pivot point. It was hidden from sight and until I completely disassembled the shaft I did not figure out just how it was all assembled.
My apologies to General Motors. You did make a change for the better.

This is just my opinion, and relates from over 25 years of experience.

Unsupported three joints in a shaft is NOT acceptable, or safe.

Adding both the Jeep shaft joints below the stock pot joint is not a good idea. In order for this to be done properly the stock pot joint would have to go, and then the Jeep shaft may not be long enough or match up to the steering column shaft. Another option would be to add a carrier bearing or bushing to support one of the shafts.

It is a nice idea, and the lower joint is a nice change from the rag joint. But simply replacing the rag joint with a u-joint gets us back to the vibration elimination issue.

I'll keep my eyes open for another solution, but this one is a "NO GO".

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Post by killian96ss »

Brule, did you happen to get a pic of that upper hidden "pot joint"? I haven't done the Borgeson shaft mod on the CC yet, and now I'm wondering if there is a way to replace the upper "pot joint" and lower rag joint with a nice double u-joint collapsible shaft like I have on my SS. :idea:

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Post by HenryJ »

killian96ss wrote:...did you happen to get a pic of that upper hidden "pot joint"?
It is easy enough to check yours out.
Inside, at the base of the column , where your column meets the firewall, at the top edge of the carpet, there is a rubber boot. Pull it back and it reveals the pot joint.

Removal will require pulling the column back as there is not enough room to slide the pot joint off of the column shaft and clear the firewall. The convoluted rubber shield the extends into the engine compartment , must also be removed to the interior.

I can see those rubber boots being a sealing problem sometime in the future.

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Post by HenryJ »

ZR2USA Thread: Rag joint to U-joint swap *pics*, question for those that have done it.
Keeper wrote:Okay so I finished my rag joint to u joint swap. I used a double ujoint shaft from a Grand Cherokee.

Its in and it steers. BUT the shaft has a lot of side to side movement. I can move mine about an inch either way. It seems way to loose and there is no way to tighten it up since most of the movement is coming from the shaft right out of the steering column inside the truck.

Only thing I could possibly do it is shove the upper ujoint and the shaft from the column tighter to limit movement.
Keeper Jun 10 2007, 10:42 AM wrote:Any other ideas out there?
Hotratz wrote:You could always put the rag joint back in
Keeper wrote:lol...thats not the idea I was looking for. I did keep the original one just in case!

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